But to make up for that, he has experience. He's ben playing for a few years, plus, he would be much better on O with the MUCH decreased pressure on him to score.
I don't know about Woods but when I watched Dunleavy play man to man defense against Wilcox, Jeffries and Prince (when he decided to score)--among others--it wasn't a pretty sight. These are college (mostly power) forwards he couldn't stay with at all, let alone even quicker pro swingmen. Thus I was basing my opinion from what I saw, not popularity contests (Dunleavy also was 1st team all-america on one list, which was a total joke, though 3rd team all-america was defensable). In short, perhaps Dunleavy is a better than average college defender, but I saw little reason to think he would be a "good pro defender". This is in contrast to many other players I saw who showed superior 1 one 1 as well as team defensive potential and/or skill (Wilcox, Gooden, Butler).
aelliott, I am quite surprised you are this high on Dunleavy. I am just curious to know if you watched MD and Duke a lot. I wouldn't go by NBAdraft's report on MD--it compares him to Larry Bird for Pete's sake. There are a couple of myths here as well. Myth 1: Dunleavy is a "great shooter". He isn't, you could call him a "good shooter", but not much more. Last year he was a 38% 3 shooter and 68% FT shooter. Take out his 3's and his shooting goes up, but his% is certainly not distinct from other players on his team. Further I suspect his %'s are worse his previous 2 years. Compare that to "great shooters"--Rice, Battier, Langdon, or the guy he is compared with (BIRD)--well, you can't and still keep a strait face. Myth 2: Dunleavy is a "clutch performer". Dunleavy had one fine shooting game with a lot on the line. That was against Arizona 2 years ago. But in that game he was the 1 guy Arizona didn't cover. At the time it was the right decision (to leave him open from the rotations helping down on Boozer and Battier)--Dunleavy hadn't been shooting well even when wide open. It just didn't work out that day, championship to Duke, and a whole lot of people saying what "great clutch shooter" Dunleavy is based on a hot streak on 4 or so wide open looks. That stretch lead everyone to forget how he played earlier that turney, let alone earlier in that year, and to a claim of the next Larry Bird. More evidence on this myth. If you watched Duke the last 2 years by far the players who most often saved their bacon were JW and Battier. Likewsie, did MD raise his game in this year's turney when his team needed him to?? Not really, last year's turney he shot 35% from 3 land (and missed so real important late wide open looks) and 73% from FT while averaging 16PPG in 3 key games. Compare this to Butler who was the focus on opponents D yet still managed to shoot 50% from 3, 85% from the line, and scoring 27PPG. Myth 3: Dunleavy is just budding. While this could be true--and if so the a reason I might be underestiming his pro potential, he still is a junior who has played 3 years in 1 of the most pro-like systems and around two other players that had to demand the opponents defensive focus. His age isn't that much different than Gooden or Butler--all are older than the Wilcox--who ate a couple of them up. If Dunleavy is still filling out his body, and can get much stronger so that he can a 4 or at least a legit 3/4 tweener I see him as potentially being an NBA force. But that is a big if because I can't fathem him gaining the quickness to be an effective defender on the quicker swingmen that SGs or heavy minutes SFs often face in the NBA. I'll reinterate, with the Rockets need for additional athleticsm on the front line and more players who can play man to man defense, I would never pick MD if Gooden, Butler or Wilcox were on the board. You would get the added benefit of well-rounded offensive games of Gooden or Butler (though not there in Wilcox at this time).
Yes, thank you Desert Scar. I also think he is also overrated overall. His "clutch ability" was especially overrated. You stated it the best.
Thank you Desert Scar. Granted, Mike Dunleavy has had a storied college career, but what Dookie doesn't? He played on a team with Jay Williams, Boozer, and Daniel Ewing. Defenses had no choice but to play a zone, which left him plenty of wide open looks. You need to look no further than Trajan Langdon and William Avery to show that Dukies have a tendency to flop in the NBA. Even Maggette still hasn't done a whole lot. Other than Brand and Grant Hill not a lot of Dukies are still around. Cherokee Parks and Christian Laettner were busts as well. It's clear that Dunleavy is not ready for the next level. He's skinny, slow, and may be another Langhi in the making. Remember, Langhi tore through the college ranks too, winning SEC player of the year honors. And no, I'm not making this a race thing. I just expect Junior to be a bust.
I'm seeing several post showing how Dunleavy stats don't match up to other players namely Bird and Butler. College stats do not exactly show how a player is going to do in the pros. Duke has several soon to be NBA players on that team and they utilize all of them playing as a team. This also goes for some other North Caralina teams back in the day with Jordan and Worthy playing together. Not that these players games are anything alike but look at Jordan's Sr. year in college compared to Dunleavy's Jr year. Jordan 19.6 pts 5.3 rbs 77% ft 64 ast 50 stl Dunleavy Jr. 17.3 pts 7.2 rbs 72 ast 68% ft 80 stl College stats mean nothing about a players pro potential. Didn't Langhi average like 25 pts a game in college???
<i>If we got the #3, and we could pick Dunleavy, or pick Wagner/Williams and send him to Clipper for Odom, I'd do the latter. No more waiting for developing. Odom can do anything Dunleavy can.</i> Let's think about this Odom proposal of yours some. Ok, Odom makes $2.8M/year and for the purpose of trades, our draft pick has no value. The Clips are over the cap so the salaries exchanged have to be within 15%. So, in order to trade for Odom, we'd have to send them approximately $2.38M in return. Who do you plan on trading to the clips? I'm sure that you'll throw KT into the deal (seems that everyone else does), but he only accounts for about $1M in salary. You'd have to include more salary to make the deal work. Also, it's got to be somebody that the Clips want to take. Let's assume that you come up with the required salary and that the Clippers will do the deal and we trade for Odom. No way would the Rockets give him a big contract extention right now, he's too much of a risk. It's also not in Odom's best interest to sign for a smaller salary. If he's not going to get a large long term deal, then he's better off playing out the last year of his deal and trying to raise his value. Obviously, if Odom plays badly, then we didn't get value for the #5 pick. Then we'd be faced with having to decide how much we would be willing to offer him as a free agent. You know somebody will offer him significant money, so we'd be stuck with either letting him go and getting nothing (or lesser value) in return for our #5 pick or overpaying for him in order to keep him. The other scenario says that Odom comes here and plays great. Now he's a free agent and would command close to the max on the free market. I personally wouldn't want to invest that kind of money in a kid that is as inmature as Odom. The idea of Odom with a long term deal in his pocket frightens me. Now, let's think about this from the Clippers point of view. Why do they want the #3 pick? They need a point guard and a center, but the prime guys at those positions will most likely be gone (williams and Ming). What centers or point guards are going to be available at #3 that won't be there for the Clips pick? Maybe you could argue that they'd want Wagner, but he's never played point guard in his life, so that would be a risk. He's really an undersized shooting guard. Now factor in the rumors that are floating around (in ESPN insider) of potential Odom for Andre Miller or Odom for Barron Davis deals. Those are alot better deals for the Clips than trading for the #3 pick. Waiting doesn't really bother me. No matter who we get, we're not going to make a run at the title next year, so what difference does it make. We'll be better and will have a shot at the playoffs, but we're not going to make a run deep into the playoffs.
<i>aelliott, I am quite surprised you are this high on Dunleavy. I am just curious to know if you watched MD and Duke a lot. I wouldn't go by NBAdraft's report on MD--it compares him to Larry Bird for Pete's sake. </i> Yeah, I didn't really have much choice. If you watch the NCAA, then you're going to see every Duke game there is. It's alot like watching the NBA, you can't avoid watching the Lakers nowdays. <i>If you watched Duke the last 2 years by far the players who most often saved their bacon were JW and Battier.</i> Is that really a surprise to you? Wouldn't you expect that the All-American Senior/player of the year candidate or the All-American PG/Player of the year candidate would be taking the big shots? You're comparing Dunleavy on the basis of being the goto guy. That's not what he is. He's a guy that is incredibly sound in his fundementals and is very versital. He can do what ever you need in order to help the team. I want him to come in and to fill alot of holes, make us smarter, make the other players better and to do whatever we need to win. I'm not looking for him to be our primary scorer, we've got enough guys that want to shoot the ball. I don't think that most NBA personel people share your opinion of Dunleavy. He'll go in the top 5. Why would consider drafting Gooden or Wilcox? Those guys are PFs and the last thing that we need is another PF.
The 38% 3 point field goal percentage bothers me. I don't understand that number, because every time I watched Dunleavy play personally, he seemed to shoot very well from behind the arc.
Dunleavy and Mike Miller are clones of each other. Both are good at a little bit of everything but not very good at anything. Both are too slow for the 2 and not strong enough for the 3. They both could use a lot of work in the weight room and at chris carters fast track program. I don't understand with all the new programs and things, some of the good all around players, don't work on becoming better athletes.I think you could get the same in Tayshaun Prince at a much lower draft pick.
People get real! Odom would destroy this team. Do you really want to rest the future on a guy who is one toke away from a years suspension. If we got the third pick I wouldnt throw it away on Odom. Im not sold on Dunleavy but I would take him over Odom in a heart beat! Having said that I don't think we need a SF. We are in the same boat as the Knicks. We need some quality big men. By quality I mean players who aren't a liability on one end of the floor. Players who will fight for a rebound and at least tip the ball if they cant get it. Tall players who know how to score,rebound and defend in the paint. Lets look at our centers and PF. Cato....No offensive game at all and has the same problem as the tin man. Had a slow start because of poor conditioning but ended up getting better as his condition improved. If the Rockets can get him to commit to an off-season program could live up to some of his early hype and be a decent defensive center. That's a big if because they couldn't get him to do it last off-season. Jason C....All offense no defense. Basically a spot up shooting big man. MoT.....All offense avg defense and is coming off a major injury. Reports are he is overweight and behind schedule in his rehab. If reports are true we will be lucky if he can make any kind of serious contribution before the all-star break. Kenny T.....Is a hustle player who is coming off his best year where he improved nearly every aspect of his game. If he improves his range and passing skills could be a very good SF. No reason to think he wont since he has improved every year since coming into the NBA. Still he doesn't have the height to play down low. EG....Already good shot blocker and rebounder. Doesn't have much experience playing down low. Will one off-season be enough for him to develop a solid post up game? Basically we have one player with the potential to be a good player down low...Eddie Griffin. This is the player that we need to draft if he is available at the 5th or 6th pick. If he's gone then go after a SF because there aren't any other big men worth our first pick. NBA Comparison: Jermaine O'Neal Strengths: Has the necessary desire to be a very good pro. An excellent athlete with superior leaping ability who excels at crashing the boards. Has amazing lateral quickness for a bigman. Can post up or face the basket and has the strength and quickness to overpower or get around opponents. Can play some at the SF position, with his great agility, but his abilities are best utilized at the 4. Has a well rounded offensive game with great touch and a nifty baby-hook. Weaknesses: Needs to get bigger and stronger, looks as if he can improve immensely here. Must mature, gain more consistency. Ball handling must improve. Not an incredible passer but above average. Notes: Very strong and athletic. A superstar in the making. Plays with a lot of energy, crashes the boards well. Very aggressive offensively. Too big and strong to play the 3. Has the mobility but his game is better suited for the paint. Must develop his upper body. Can play away from the basket but should focus on the post. His name: Drew Gooden Everyone here seems to think he isnt big enough and will get pushed around. He is 5 pounds heavier than Rasheed Wallace. I dont recall Rasheed getting pushed around to much. Okay Rasheed is a special player lets compare him too someone a little more his skill level coming into the NBA. How about Paul Gasol he did a pretty good job of handling the pounding style of the NBA. Its more about heart than braun and Gooden has plenty of heart.
leebigez: You can't work on being a better athlete. That is all God given. The one thing you can work on is becoming a better player and learning the fundamentals like passing, shooting, and moving without the ball. These are things that made the unathletic players become great players. This is something that MD excels at which hopefully can rub off on our athletic players and make the Rockets finally a cohesive team like they had in the mid 90's.
ONE MORE TIME. If for some reason, Odom tested positive again for whatever, he does NOT get suspended for a year. NOT, NO, WILL NOT. Second of all, Mo Taylor doesn't seem to be destroying this team. By aelliott's logic, if we pick Odom, if he plays bad, then we're srewed. if he plays good, then we're screwed. If Odom plays good enough to warrant the MAX, then it's better than giving the MAX to Lewis IMO. That 1M in salary we can trade them through Tierre and Collier or whatever. Just fillers. Mike Dunleavy will always have this one little problem. He's a step slow. That can not be worked on. But Odom is a gym rat, and there's no reason to believe that he can't wor on everything and rach his ceiling, which is higher than Dunleavy's. Oh, and no way do I think Odom will demand the MAX. The most likely scenario is he'll ask for Mo Taylor money, maybe a bit more, which is perfectly fine with me.
Can you show me a link to info stating this. Everything that I have read states he has 2 strikes against him and a third will lead to an automatic 1 year suspension.
Sane I went looking for info about Odom. At first I didnt want Odom because of possibility of failing a third drug test. After reading all the headlines of him the past few years I have come to a new conclusion. Odom is an outstanding talent.....and the dude is a freakin injury waiting to happen. One night he blocks 9 shots the next night he trips/falls and bruises his hip and cant play for a month. Now I more than ever hope we pass on this guy. I cant remember a player who has had this many injuries in such a short career. It seems like for every good game hes had hes missed 4. Lamar Odom #7 Los Angeles Clippers Small Forward HT: 6-10 WT: 221 4/9/02 9:25 AM CT Odom will undergo surgery on Tuesday to repair damage in his right wrist. The Clippers' forward is expected to be sidelined for at least three months. He has been out since January 24. 4/1/02 9:30 AM CT Odom is not expected to return to the Clippers' lineup this season. The forward continues to recover from ankle and wrist injuries. He should be back to 100 percent for next season. 2/15/02 10:56 AM CT Clippers forward Lamar Odom, already out with a wrist injury, sprained his ankle in a shootaround on Thursday and is out another 4-6 weeks. STATS Says: This season has pretty much been a wash for Odom. He won't be back until late March. 2/14/02 1:12 PM CT Odom underwent tests on his injured right wrist Wednesday. Although the sprained ligament is healing, the Clippers' forward still needs to wear a cast. He is not expected back for another month. 2/1/02 11:37 AM CT Tests on the strained ligament in Odom's wrist have revealed that the injury has been slow to heal so far. As a result, the forward is expected to be sidelined for at least another month. STATS Says: Corey Maggette and Darius Miles will pick up the extra minutes while Odom is out of action. 1/24/02 9:30 AM CT Odom will be sidelined indefinitely after an MRI revealed that the forward has a sprained ligament in his ailing right wrist. His wrist will be placed in a cast and he will be re-evaluated early next week. STATS Says: The Clippers likely will place Odom on the injured list. 1/24/02 2:58 PM CT Odom has been placed on the injured list by the Los Angeles Clippers. His right wrist, which has a strained ligament, was placed in a cast on Thursday. He is expected to be sidelined for at least 3-4 weeks. STATS Says: Corey Maggette will continue to start in Odom's absence. 1/22/02 8:34 AM CT Odom said he is hoping to play against the Lakers on Wednesday, but would like for his sore right wrist to be healthy. The injury has been too painful for the Clippers' forward to play the last two games. STATS Says: Odom is questionable and likely will be a game-time decision for the team's next few games. Corey Maggette will get the starting nod in his absence. 1/21/02 10:19 AM CT Odom aggravated his sore right wrist in the Clippers' game on Friday. As a result, the forward left in the third quarter and did not return. The injury also forced him to miss Saturday's game against the Trail Blazers. STATS Says: Odom is day-to-day and may have to spend some time on the injured list. 1/17/02 11:44 AM CT Odom's wrist continues to bother him, but he has been logging nearly 40 minutes per game over the last couple of weeks. The forward said he would have an MRI on the injury when the Clippers return to LA later this week. 1/9/02 10:06 AM CT The stomach flu forced Odom to exit Tuesday's game against the Wizards in the second quarter. He did not return and has been listed as day-to-day by the Clippers. He should not miss much time. 1/3/02 12:40 PM CT Odom was able to return to the Clippers' lineup on Wednesday after missing the previous three games with a wrist injury. He logged 40 minutes in Wednesday's loss to the Kings, scoring 13 points and grabbing seven boards. 1/2/02 9:58 AM CT Odom has missed the Clippers' last three games with a sprained right wrist. X-rays on the injury, which he originally suffered over two weeks ago, have been negative. He is currently listed as day-to-day. STATS Says: Darius Miles, Corey Maggette and Eric Piatkowski will see increased minutes while Odom is out of action. 12/28/01 11:36 AM CT After shooting 2-for-14 on Saturday and finishing with just six shots on Wednesday, Odom missed Thursday's contest with a sprained wrist. STATS Says: He is day-to-day and should be able to go this weekend. Darius Miles got the start in place of Odom for the Clippers. 11/21/01 3:38 PM CT Odom has been reinstated by the NBA. He will be eligible to return to action for Thursday's game against the Nets. The Clippers' forward missed eight games after being suspended for using mar1juana. 11/8/01 10:20 AM CT Odom has been placed on the suspended list by the Los Angeles Clippers, meaning he will miss an extra game over the five he has already been suspended. Wednesday, the forward admitted to using mar1juana. STATS Says: Odom will be eligible to return November 18 against the New York Knicks. 11/5/01 3:57 PM CT Odom is currently nursing a bruised left foot. The Clippers' forward is listed as day-to-day and may be forced to miss a game or two this week. 11/5/01 4:55 PM CT Odom has been suspended for five games by the NBA for violating the league's anti-drug policy. It is the second time in less than a year he has been suspended for the same offense. 4/14/01 12:03 PM CT The Clippers have exercised a fourth-year option on Odom's contract. The forward is now signed with the team through the 2002-03 season. 4/9/01 3:02 PM CT The NBA has fined Odom $7,500 for verbally abusing an official and failing to leave the court in a timely fashion after being ejected in Friday's win over the Milwaukee Bucks. 4/8/01 10:57 PM CT Odom is day-to-day for the Clippers with a bruised tailbone. He suffered the injury against the Bucks on Friday and missed Saturday's game against the Spurs. Corey Maggette started in his stead. 4/1/01 3:42 PM CT Odom posted his third triple double in the last five games for the Clippers on Saturday. The forward had 11 points, 10 rebounds, and 10 assists as the Clippers defeated the Cavaliers. 3/28/01 12:27 PM CT Odom posted his second triple double in the last three games, and sixth of his career, on Tuesday against the Pistons. The Clippers forward had 27 points, 11 assists, and a career-high 16 rebounds. 3/16/01 2:37 PM CT Odom, who is currently serving a five-game suspension, is scheduled to return Tuesday when the Clippers play the Sixers. Corey Maggette could return to the bench. (CM) 3/7/01 4:35 PM CT The NBA has suspended Odom for five games for violating the terms of the league's anti-drug program. Because of NBA and Player Association policy, no other information was disclosed. STATS Says: The Clippers will likely suffer with their team-leader not on the floor. On the bright side, Odom will have a chance to rest a sore hip which he has been battling over the last couple of weeks. 3/2/01 11:31 AM CT Odom tripped and fell in the third quarter of Thursday's loss to the Blazers, bruising his left hip. He did not return to the game. STATS Says: Odom said he was 50-50 to play on Friday. The Clippers need him on the floor if they expect to win. He should be in the lineup this weekend. 12/24/00 9:39 AM CT Lamar Odom had season-high nine blocks against Vancouver yesterday. (OP) 12/21/00 5:20 PM CT Often double-teamed last night, Odom dished out 10 assists in the Clippers' win over Minnesota. The Clippers are 4-1 when Odom has seven or more assists. They are 0-5 when the big man has two or fewer assists. (OP) 4/5/00 9:41 AM CT Odom did play Tuesday night against the Jazz despite a calf injury. He played 33 minutes for the Clippers and scored 11 points. 4/4/00 3:17 PM CT Odom is listed as doubtful for Tuesday's game against Utah because of a strained calf. 3/21/00 4:34 PM CT Odom has a strained calf and is listed day-to-day. 3/16/00 10:32 AM CT The Clipper rookie recorded his third triple double of the season on Wednesdy night. He scored 21 points, grabbed 10 rebounds and added 10 assists. 1/4/00 7:41 PM CT Odom overslept and missed the Clippers' practice on Monday. (EDC) 12/25/99 12:17 AM CT Odom received two technical fouls and was ejected from Thursday's game. The first technical foul came after Odom nearly got into a fight with Sacramento's Corliss Williamson. The second came for arguing with a ref. (OP) 10/13/99 7:29 PM CT The Clippers' first-round draft pick had a rough first night, going 6-for-20 in his first preseason game. (OP)
IMO, wanting Lamar Odom is 'insane'. The guy is only one more bong hit away from being a three time violator. DOESN'T ANYONE REMEMBER LEWIS LLOYD? What has changed to now allow a player as many drug offenses as humanly possible in the NBA? If drugs don't bring a suspension, then why does the league conduct random drug testing? Why is Odom's stock at such an all time low if chronic drug abuse doesn't bring about steeper and steeper suspensions with each violation? I also agree Odom is just an injury waiting to happen. He has chronic wrist injuries because he can't put down the bong. After the way our season went last year, I don't want any more already known about injury waiting to happen types. We already have enough dead cap money on this team, the last thing I want is to trade for another talented FORMER CLIPPER "POT-HEAD" WHO WILL LEAVE US WITH NOTHING BUT MORE DEAD CAP MONEY IN THE END DUE TO EITHER DRUGS OR INJURIES. IMO, Odom is just too much of a risk for all of the potential talent he would bring. I'd draft Dunleavy over a trade for Lamar Odom 10 days out of 10 and twice on Sunday.
