What's with this thing on athletcism? How you use your body is what matters, not how flexible and powerful it is naturally. That's where skills come in, and Duncan is one of the most skilled big men ever.
Originally posted by Desert Scar But again, there is no way he shoud be put on the Hakeem/Kareem level, and that is the better comparison than strait PFs like Malone or Barkley. Duncan has never and will never be that dominant on the way to championships. I don't understand your take, or more specically your reaction to my take. I said I think Duncan will go down as a greater player than Malone, I'd certainly take Duncan over Karl (or Amare) if I were trying to build a championship team. ' But I would not take him over Hakeem or Kareem. In addition to producing championships (7 between them and like 10+ final visits when the league had a number of elite powers--Celts, 6ers, Pistons, Bulls), Hakeem and Kareem also had substantially more dominant individual statistics. Duncan may get a ring this year and get another playoff MVP, but I think Hakeem or Kareem on their MVP runs were better players in about every way. Points, rebounds, blocks, shooting %, FT%, steals, assists, you name it--they were more dominant. 1) his game is more like Hakeem or Kareem-lite than Barkley or Malone's It is a credit to Duncan I am comparing him to Hakeem and Kareem rather than Malone and Barkley, even if I think Duncan is at least a notch below Hakeem or Kareem in their primes. 2) Duncan is playing half of his minutes at center and the Spurs ending (best) lineup has him at center. That is more indicative of what he is than the name of his position he starts with. 3) Hakeem (quicker than TD) certainly could play PF too if he started off with DR or if he was determined to as TD has, again compare guys with similar frames and games, not simply which official spot he is in on the opening tip. Agreed, with the Duncan and skills part, but so did Hakeem and Kareen have those phenom skills. They also had more athletic gifts on top of their skills (BTW Duncan is a better athlete than many credit, but he is not a phenom athlete like Hakeem). The combination of phenom skills, grace and athletic ability is why those two were better and more dominant players than Duncan.
Greatest Player Ever Hands Down.Well maybe Yao is better but other than that. Jordan is no Tim Duncan.
The Rockets made it to the Western Conference finals after 95 and the Lakers made it back to the finals after 02. That is not declining quickly. Declining quickly are teams like Minnesota who go from western conference finals to missing the playoffs. It is also unlikely that the Spurs would quickly decline with their three best players still in their twenties. Duncan is one of the greatest players in the game today and in history. He should be a Hall-of-famer if he retired today. I see him winning the title this year and one more later on.
Yes both teams made it back after acquiring another HoFamer on the tail end of his career but never won a title once their key star declined and soon went into full rebuild mode. It really all revolves around the 29 year old Duncan staying a top 3 player, neither Manu or Parker are good enough to carry playoff strong teams. Kobe and Tmac were not even good enough to carry such teams, and they are lots better than Manu or Parker. One of the greatest in the game today, absolutely, one of the best in history, that is stretching it. He will not go down as a top 5 big and probably not top 10 overall player in NBA history. But certainly he is a top 50 all-time player, maybe top 20.
So Tim plays half his minutes THIS YEAR at center? What about the first 6 seasons when Robinson was the C, or last yr when they tried the Rasho experiment? Duncan is a PF!! I agree that he isn't a Dream or Kareem (both could be argued as the best center ever). But he isn't a C.
I find it interesting that Duncan is mentioned with Dream and Kareem and he has play half the amount of time those guys have. Has Duncan even hit his prime yet. This next season will be the full summers rest he has had in 2 years. I think with duncan playing career low number of minutes and still putting up great number it a tribute to how great he really is. I think Duncan after this year has a possibility of winning 3 or 4 more rings. His window of time for his career is still quite open. I think when his career is over he will be know as one of the top big men in history. Higher than Shaq.
Based on his frame, skills and the type of game he plays is not Hakeem (one of the best ever Cs) a better comparison for Duncan than say Barkley (one of the best ever PFs)? Had Hakeem played along side DR Dream could have been considered just as much a PF as Duncan was. I can't see anywhere in his game where Duncan is more PF-like than Hakeem, in fact Hakeem was much quicker and more adept at guarding smaller players than Duncan is able to. I think getting away from the formality of what position he lines up and comparing him to more similar types of players is more meaningfull. Most people don't just argue for whether Jordan was the best SG, or Bird the best SF, or Magic the best PG, or Kareem or Wilt or Russell the best C, or Oscar the best PG/SG. For the true greats comparing them to others at their positions is much less meaningful than comparing them to the best players of all time as many of these players defy conventional positional roles.
But you just can't hypothetically label him as a center based on his shape. In that case, you would have to label Magic a PF and Jordan a SF. I agree that the greats are compared to the greats regardless of position, and that Duncan is not a Dream or Kareem. But you can't take away the argument that he may be the best PF ever by saying he has the body of a center.
Duncan is Mr. Consistent. Night in, night out he's gonna give you his all and he's gonna get his. And he's gonna make everyone around him better - particularly on the defensive end. If you were building a team today, and were looking for an anchor it's hard to not consider wanting to build it around Tim Duncan.
I think we are on the same page, I would just add the following modification to what you said and would fully agree to it: "But you can't take away the argument that he may be the best PF ever by saying he has the body and game of a center." His game is a lot closer to the best of the finese centers like Kareem or Hakeem that it is to the best PFs like Barkley or probably that of Karl Malone's as well (I don't know the Big E's or Bob Petit well enough to compare them).
Duncan is about the same size and has not too disimilar a style from Kevin McHale so I guess McHale is a center too and should be measured agaisnt other centers, right ?
New Jersey and New York (mind you, an 8th seed) were teams that this year Rockets could have beaten. I'm sorry, but until the Pistons arrived, the NBA East has been a joke since the Bulls. Second, it is irrelevant what he is listed as. He plays like a Center. Why is that so hard for people to get? He is a center, because he plays like one. Magic Johnson played like a point guard, he distributed the ball. Jordon played like a shooting guard. Duncun plays like a CENTER. If it walks like a center, talks like a center, then hey, it's a center. Screw what he's listed as. Great, so they put him on the other power forwards because big men in the NBA outside of Shaq really do suck. There was a golden era of big men recently with Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, even down to Divacs, Smits, Sabonis, Perkins, Mourning, Johnson, even Rodman. Garnett? So what? Dirk? Overrated. And then you have Duncun, and guys like brand? Great. Yao is the second best center behind a rapidly aging Shaq. Amare is the first big man to since Shaq to wow people. Duncun? So the guy can hit a bank shot and dunk on pick and rolls. Great, he rebounds pretty well, and gets some blocks like a 7 footer should. He's not excellent in any statistical category. Let me repeat that - what statistical category does he dominate? It's easy to put up big numbers against a soft league, it's much hard for what Amare did, which is lite up the supposedly best big man in the game right now. I'm not impressed with Duncun. I don't see his game as remarkable anyway, he's very smart, got a solid game, and that little bank shot which the crap players of today can't defend. His numbers are already on the decline. Impressed? hardly. He won't be remembered outside of Texas. How many people talk about David Robinson these days? And Duncun hasn't even surpassed what he did.
I don't care what you say, if you can't spell the word DUNCAN, especially when it's right in front of you constantly, I just can't take you seriously.
Spelling was never my forte. Oh well. Anyway, there's not much more to say on DuncAn...time will tell what legacy he'll leave behind.
hmm, is someone putting a little bit too much emphasis on stats? No wonder you think Amare and Malone are gods. What's the point of even debating about which players were better when we can look at the career statistics? How silly of me. His numbers were low this year because he had flourishing teammates and played a career low number of minutes. He led his team to over a 60 win pace before he was injured. He has put up dominating numbers in the playoffs, if that's all you care about. Hit the series clinching shot against Seattle if you want crunch-time heroics. The only thing Duncan hasn't surpassed Robinson in is career totals. He has racked up more awards in accolades in half the time. But that doesn't matter because the league is so soft these days, right? Let me guess, you are still trying to figure out how Bill Walton got into the hall of fame.
I don't care about your spelling, but after this post, I just can't take you seriously at all. Have you ever played organized basketball? I ask that because if you've ever played on a basketball team, you know that every once in a while you play against a team that has a player who doesn't seem overly athletic or spectacular. A guy who doesn't really make any amazing moves or incredible shots. But he still dominates the game by scoring, rebounding, playing D, etc., and no one can really figure out how to stop him. That's Tim Duncan. Sure, just watching him, he might not really seem all that special. But the results and his consistency are what make him a great player. There is not a player in the league who wouldn't want Tim Duncan on their team.
Except for the spelling of Duncan and Jordan I agree with this part of NY's take. The rest I don't think he gives Duncan enough credit. He is better IMO than all centers in the last 30 or so years save Hakeem and Shaq--and that includes some fine ones like Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Deke, and Yau . After Hakeem and Shaq, the only three bigs where you might say they were the force of Duncan in their prime were Robinson, Malone and Barkley. They might have been better, or Duncan may have been better, but to me even though those other guys had far more impressive MVP seasons statistically than Duncan's best because only he delivered the ultimate hardware the nod goes to him. Further, in Malone's 1999 MVP season (which really should have gone to Duncan), in the playoffs Duncan proved to be better. That said, I can't see Duncan prooving himself better than Hakeem or Shaq at their peaks--he needs a 27-30PPG, 12-13RPG, 3-4BPG type season on the way to ripping all challengers as part of a championship run to make that case. But I do think he will finish ahead of the rest of the bigs over the last couple of decades.
Yeah, those guys are the best to have on your team, because they are the guys you love because they just bring it every night. And I'd love to have Duncan on my team. But i'd pick Amare ahead of Duncun in a heartbeat. Anyway, let's see what Duncan can do against Miami and Detroit and then decide how great he is. I think it will be the first time he'll actually have to play against great defense with big bodies inside that can actually defend in a series. I think he will struggle to hit 25ppg, and you'll see him look very mortal.
