Yes, Shaq got so much help, poor Karl had to be the man and was never ever given any help at all, except for arguably the greatest point guard of all time for basically his entire career and then Shaq himself also. Please, Karl is the poster boy for how a player can be made better by his teammates. Sure, Jack Haley has several rings, however he does not have 7 all NBA selections, MVPs, All Defensive team selections, NBA final MVPs, etc etc. Of course it is not measured by rings alone, but when you have great players with great pedigrees, that is usually the deciding factor - since that is the point of the whole thing. It is a department where Tim delivered repeatedly (and is continuing to do so), and where the mailman failed repeatedly. ....lol, what? Mental defense is trash talking? (Hakeem? Bill Russell? Hello? ) Why are we even having this conversation? The fact is, Tim Duncan is a vastly, vastly superior defensive player than Malone ever was, by stats, by accolades, by the fact that he is the focus of his team. He and Kevin Garnett are in a class by themselves defensively in terms of their impact on the game, something that Malone was never able to touch in his greatest season. The list of great power forwards is surprisingly short - Malone, Barkley, Garnett, Kevin McHale, Bob Petit, Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld (thought the latter two played a lot of Center as well). Hell, the fact that a player like Malone who is distinctly a cut below the Bird/Jordan/Magic/Wilt level of superstar is considered to best at the position ever should be rather telling. I personally don't need to see Duncan to play on mediocre teams and take jumpers to pad his stats for a few more years to know that he's as good or better than Malone ever was.
Got lucky my @$$, they threw the season to get Duncan. Robinson could have came back with like 25 games left but they let him ride the pine. Can you imagine how different the NBA would be if Duncan would have been a Celtic like he was supposed to?
...and that would be a signal that you are losing the argument to a point of it being beyond repair? A wise choice I guess as your position was fairly untenable.
that's a good one Sammy..Dont wanna say, I understand I wouldnt either..especially with a sig like that.. Back on topic You can say with a straight face that you would pick a player that has been in the leauge what 7 or 8 years puts up 22 and 12, has 2 rings, but is has missed games for small problems to a guy that played 19 years put up 25 and 10 and the second ALL TIME leading scorer in NBA history and before the lakers missed what.. less than 5 games?? As for your drifting to the fact that he is a JIZZHOLE everytime doesnt change the fact that Karla is a great player and to many BETTER THAN TIMMY for now...
Yes. I would. One was a franchise player who proved that he can take a team to the top with him as the featured player, the other was a guy who proved that he could not, in spite of his longeveity, etc. Karl wanted to win, but in the end, he was always about Karl, Tim is about winning , period.
Sam I hate the guy almost as much as I hate Dirk now, but you gotta pick the guy who did it BETTER for LONGER.. IF Timmy can put up his current numbers as long as Karla has, yes I will agree with you.. but the reason I cant agree with you is how does 2 rings and good play equal 19 years of great play and many NBA records falling?? 2 rings doesnt make a great player, but winning consistently for almost 20 years does..
What did Karl Malone do better than Duncan? Shoot free throws? Thus far that is pretty much the only area where he seems to have a distinct edge. Too bad his awesome free throw shooting deserted him in the fourth quarter of various NBA finals games and as a result he never was able to bring his team a title as other great players were able to do. I don't know how you can argue that one is "great" while another is merely "good". It's not like Duncan started yesterday - he's only been among the top 1-5 players on the planet every single year for the last 8 years, and already has achieved things that Malone never was able to do. Sure, Malone played more seasons. Who cares? What did he do with those extra seasons? Score points? Break some free throw shooting records? Great. You can have Fran Tarkenton and Bud Grant, I'll take Tom Brady and Bill Belichick and win some championships.
I do understand why you think Tim is so great, but it's still to early to call him GREAT... if he can keep up this pace for 5 more years there is no question that he should be in the HOF or be one of the alltime great of the game, but what happens if his knee goes out again and this time he is only a shadow of his current self... how does he stand up aganist the best of the best Centers/Power forwards?? My point is Karla has already done it, it's in the books.. Tim still has alot of road to hoe...I think it's safe to say we can agree to disagree..
if duncan retired today he would be first ballot hall of fame. the 8 years of consistent bad-assity is definately hall-worthy. the number #1 goal for any pro is a championship (or money, for you cynics out there). malone was never able to achieve his goal. duncan has twice. like sam said, id rather take 2 championships in 8 years than 20 years of great play/great #'s. oh, and carl malone is a piece of crap.
Questionable. San Antonio thus far has only been filler champs...winning titles in off years...against an 8th Seed New York Knicks team a not-deserving nets team (one that got sweep by the lakers). They beat the Lakers once. Now, the will actually have to play a good team in the finals. Secondly, Duncun is only listed as a pf. He's really a center. Anyway Karl Malone is a better PF then Duncun. Amare clealy outplayed Duncun this series. The Lakers beat the Spurs last year handidly, and and old, broken down Malone caused a lot of problems for Duncun. Malone in his prime was definitely more of a force. There's a reason why Stockton got all those assists and Karl was known as the Mailman. I mean, Stockton was never the passer Nash is now. Duncun definitely benefits from the lack of great power forwards and big man in general in his era. But I'd still pick KG over Duncun, and I'd pick Amare over Duncun. Duncun is great, but to call him the greatest ever is a strecth because he's not even the greatest powerforward of any of his time. I mean, how often do you see Duncun on a break? Never. He's a foul libability, he can put the ball on the floor, he's not a great passer. He' rebounds and gets you in the low 20's, and some blocks....and that's the greatest pf ever? Give me a break.
I find it hard to believe that there is an arguement about this. Duncan has won 2 MVP 2 Finals MVP and almost a Quadruple double in the final game 2003 finals. That was only in his first 6 years in the league. How many players have done that? What Duncan has is what only the elite players have a knack for winning the big games. Would Dream or MJ be at the staus they are today without winning the big games. You know what New Yorker you can take KG and AMare and you will always have a team that goes fishing. I will take Duncan over any player in the league TODAY and I bet I will always finish better than you. And by the way Amare wasent double all the time like duncan was.
DuncAn will be the best PF ever when he retires. Does that mean no one else can supplant him after he retires? Absolutely not. Amare is giving him a run right now. But when he retires, he'll have the accolades, the rings and the stats to back it up. Sure he's playing in an era that has few great PFs and fewer Centers but was it HIS choosing to be in this position? Hardly. He's just making the best of it as much as he can. It's like harping on Mikan (God bless him) or Wilt for winning and/or dominating just because everyone else ain't as powerful or as big. You use what you have to your advantage. When Yao emerges as a dominant center, I'm not going to say 'yea but c'mon man! he's 7'6" and there's hardly any big men left!' Asking a friggin POWER FORWARD to be involved in a fast break is stretching it a bit as well. Even KG don't get involved in fast breaks.
Pls, Tim Duncan is better than Karl Malone. Steve Nash said it best, Duncan is all about winning, nothing else. Duncan doesn't care about stats. I agree, there have been more atheltic bigs than Tim, but that only makes it more amazing that he's able to be so great while not being extremely atheletically gifted. Also, I don't know what some of you are talking about... Duncan hasn't been on a great great time. For his first ring, he had a good center next to him in Robinson and that was about it. Elliott, Avery, Mario Elle, are you kidding me??? Everyone besides Duncan and DRob were role players. For the 2nd ring, it was more of the same. It was Duncan and a bunch of role players. Parker was young, Manu was a sixth man, DRob was on his last legs. Seriously, it's only been this year where Duncan is in the Finals with an All-Star teammate. So Duncan, in his career, has done alot with relatively little. He's been the guy that's made everyone else on his team better.
What I meant was the combination of phenom athleticsim and phenon skills, certainly Duncan has the latter. Hakeem and Kareem were at least equal in the skill part, and vastly superior in the athleticsm part--that made them not merely great but legendary. Also, Duncan got the playoff MVP on the way to a championship the year Malone got the league MVP. What does that tell you? Deep in the playoffs when you want a presence on both ends, Duncan was better than Karl. Duncan will never have the career accumulation of stats that Karl did, but he certainly was the better player when all the marbles were out there. For that reason I think he will go down as the greater player than Karl or his teamate Robinson. But again, there is no way he shoud be put on the Hakeem/Kareem level, and that is the better comparison than strait PFs like Malone or Barkley. Duncan has never and will never be that dominant on the way to championships.
I think you forgot one of these: , cause if you're not being sarcastic, I disagree with just about every point you made. Filler team? Duncan's spurs have been the most consistently good team in professional sports over the last 6 or so years. When you do that, you're eventually going to break through and win titles here and there. A championship is a championship. I would gladly take one if the rockets were good and lucky enough to be in that position. I guess you're one of those guys who thinks '94 and '95 were also filler championships? About his listing as a PF or C, I find it irrelevant. He is able to guard all the elite PF's, so he allows his team to play another big man who can block shots and rebound. Would it have been advantageous for the Spurs to start Duncan at center and play Malik Rose at the PF all season long? Or start Horry who is useless for the regular season, perhaps. Or would you have Rasho guard the KG's, Dirks, and Webbers while Duncan guarded Dampier, Brad Miller, and Kandi man. I say if he has the ability to guard the elite PF's, then he's close enough to being a PF for me. Besides, this point has nothing to do with the Duncan, Malone comparision. Yes, Amare was incredible, but did the Spurs double team him one time in the series? Their strategy obviously worked because while they made Amare work pretty hard for his points, none of the Suns' shooters got their customary wide open looks. They were 1-7 in the last game from 3. Meanwhile, Duncan still got his 30 while being doubled throughout the game, opening it up for his shooters to go 9-21 from 3. Not to mention that when the Suns didn't double Duncan, the Spurs were 3-0 with TD having huge games, on two bum ankles. The Lakers beat the spurs handily last year? The series was basically determined by a lucky shot with .4 on the clock. That shot doesn't go down and the Spurs are most likely in the finals. Malone did a great job on Duncan, but he was still relatively healthy at that point. He got injured in the following series against the Wolves and missed the finals. That longevity sure came in handy when they were playing for all the marbles. "I mean, Stockton was never the passer Nash is now." Yeah, I don't think I really need to say anything about this statement. Pretty much speaks for itself. "Duncun definitely benefits from the lack of great power forwards and big man in general in his era." This is also just incredibly wrong. The last five years the nba has had more great PF's than I can remember. Malone had Barkley and McHale. Duncan has to play KG, Dirk, Webber, Brand, J. Oneal, Rasheed, and Amare. He plays against an all star every other night. He has never lost to KG or Amare in the playoffs, but who the hell cares about that? He had KG pushing him in the back of the head out of frustration back in '99. "I mean, how often do you see Duncun on a break?" There's a true measure of greatness for ya. Unlike Amare, Duncan does not abandon his teammates on the boards so he can go cherry pick. He rebounds and throws outlet passes. One last point regarding longevity. He has missed 38 regular season games in his 8 seasons. Also, since he doesn't rely on athleticism, he'll prolly be around for another 10 years. I had to read your whole post again just to make sure you weren't joking. Funny to read a post which I find wrong in every single point it makes.
By the time he retires, assuming he stays relatively healthy, Duncan will have amassed enough stats to be mentioned among the great big guys to have played the game (as much as I don't like to say it). Whether I'd take him over Malone is probably a toss up, although I'd probably take the Big Fundamental before Karl if I were starting a team from scratch. Both players share many of the same positive attributes, although Tim gives a team much more of an interior presence on defense. Malone was a much better passer out of the post, though.
Why? Just because he's not flashy? Just because he can't dank like Amare? Just because he doesn't have the stats as Malone? Sports, especially team sports is abou winning, winning only. TD might not be flashy, but he impacts the game on both end, he made his teammates better, if that's not great, what is? Bird was flashy either, neither could he throw down dunks like crazy, but you know what, I will take TD, Bird over Amare or Malone any given day. Championships are the utimate goals. The corerstone, in that championship team are great players. I don't understand the sentiment against teams like Detriot or Spurs. They are not big market teams, but they play winning ball. That's what I like about them. Only those jealousy players or bunch of "attention w****" analysts would claim that kind of winning boring. When AC Milan was under Trappatoni, their best year winning championship, they went 50 games unbeaten! Their motor? 1-0 is enough. You might feel bored if you want to see highlights sports center, but you can enjoy their games very much if you really love the game.
Spurs went through the Lakers for both of their titles? Why do folks keep saying Duncan is a center....because he is tall? I guess Magic wasn't a PG either....
