The pitcher Billy Wagner was talking about was Woody Williams, according to the broadcast. Billy basically ripped into Drayton, but all he really did was tell the truth by saying that he thinks he and probably Hidalgo will be traded because the Astros are not about doing what it takes to "get better," but instead are about doing just enough to "be competitive."
not to be sexist (or "ageist" - is that even a word?), but.. kids and women.. that's telling us something, I think..
Sure the players were good, but they were good only in the regular season. Not the owner's fault. Here's what the owner can do: he can get rid of players in the offseason that suck in the clutch after getting numerous chances (aka biggio and Hidalgo), and give someone else a shot. You think SF should have gotten rid of Barry Bonds under the same theory? It's better than standing pat with a team with hitters that tend to choke when it counts. That is the best an owner can do to make the Astros hit in the playoffs. Berkman, Hildago, Biggio, Bagwell, Berry, Bell, Alou, Everett, Kent, Caminiti, Ensberg, Ward, etc. We haven't had all the same "star" players year in and year out on this team. Changing the players has gotten the same results. We brought Alou in after his near-MVP world series performance and he did no better than anyone else.
It would be hard to be better than his first three games: 3-0 17.2 ip 2 er (1.02 ERA) 17 k 7 bb looking at just the first 2 is even better: 2-0 13 ip 0 er 14 k 3 bb So it's not really fair to say "I doubt he'll be better than his first few games." - nobody could be better than his first few games. I'll settle for him being better than Ron Villone, Jared Fernandez, Munro, Saarloos, or any of the other scrubs they used to fill the rotation this year.
I'm fine with trading these guys (Hidalgo and Wagner), as long as it brings back some MAJOR LEAGUE TALENT in return. The last cost-cutting move the 'Stros made was dealing Carl Everett for Adam Everett. Sure that trade looks OKAY now, but it took a whole 3 years for us to get SOMETHING out of it... that can't be the case this time around. Its just sad that even though this team is in a new stadium, the same cost cutting moves that Drayton made in the Dome exist here today. Personally, I have no idea what the market is for Wagner and Hidalgo... only high end paying teams need apply. Also, trading either of these guys to a Division foe is OFF LIMITS... (unless the Cubs are offering Prior... which they won't). Hell... the Padres are looking to make a run next year. Trade these guys for Adam Eaton or Mark Kotsay, and maybe we have a deal.
Here's what the owner can do: he can get rid of players in the offseason that suck in the clutch after getting numerous chances (aka biggio and Hidalgo), and give someone else a shot. Actually, that's what the GM should do. The owner should trust the GM to do the right thing. If the GM isn't performing to expectations, get a new one. But the owner shouldn't be that involved with the operations of the team.
It wasn't a bad year. This team got virtually nothing out of its two aces most of the year, lost two key hitters for a month long stretch each, didn't get a typical lance berkman year or jeff kent year and yet improved on last years 84-78 record. I'm not saying I'm happy that the astros are sitting home for october, but how much can you expect out of a team? The braves and yankees have really been the only constants in the postseason the last 10 years, and both have top 5 payrolls in the game. The braves are where they are because of Giles and Lopez this year. Them having career years has turned a solid offense into a god like one. It surely isn't their pitching or defense. Also look at San Francisco. I'm amazed at how they got 100 wins. They have a decent at best supporting cast for Bonds, and one true ace in Schmidt. Felipe Alou did a marvelous job and they won a lot of close games. I'm not sure if this is the case now, but for much of the season the Astros had a better run differential than the Giants. Personally, I don't like baseball's playoff setup. Every year a good team or two sits at home because only 4 teams from each league make it. In the AL, Seattle deserved at least a small shot, and you could make a case for the Whitesox. In the NL, the Astros, Phillies, Cardinals, Dodgers, and even DBacks could make a case. I understand the feeling of unhappiness that one's team missed the chance to win it all by a close margin, but as long as baseball insists on making its postseason such an exclusive club there will be a good team or two left out from each league, and sadly with such a balanced NL, a lot of good teams aren't playing in October this year. 87-75 is not something to put your nose up at, especially with all the Astros problems this year. And I will reiterate, I hate the fact the Cubs won the division. I hate the fact our most reliable part of our team cost us monday vs SF. I hate the fact we couldn't sweep the lowly brewers. But it does not make it a bad year. A dissapointing one? Yes. But you could be a fan in Cincinnati or Pittsburgh going through a seemingly never ending rebuilding process with nothing to show for it. So keep things in perspective.
Wagner said it best....he does not go out and spend the money to make a serious contender. Wagner we will miss you buddy........ Drayton thanks for another lie.
It is the owner's fault. It's his fault for opting to keep these type players around. Take Biggio for instance. He knows that Biggio sucks when it counts (because Biggio has been doing this for many years now), but yet Drayton still wants him on the team. And since he does, it shows he doesn't care about winning in the playoffs and beyond. So it is the owner's fault. well, let's say it's just after the 2000 playoffs when they lost to the Mets..and Barry choked again..trading him is something I would have considered believe it or not...I am a fan that wants to win, and despite all his MVPs, Barry wasn't displaying that ability when it counted the most. would I have wanted to get rid of the Barry of 2001 and after, hell no...but getting rid of Barry pre 2001 (for an extra arm or another slugger), would have been an option I would have looked at But I think i may know where your going with this.....You may be saying give Hidalgo time, he'll figure out how to hit when it counts. I aint buying it. Hidalgo is no Bonds. Trade him now while his stats are decent. That is true in some sense. But alot of that change has been by just minor leaguers coming up to the team, and that is not good enough. I want McLane to change the ballclub more frequently by bringing in free agent hitters in the offseasons. He did a good job with Alou and with Kent last year. But he needs to come through again this offseason, and the best way would be to replace Doggy with another bat. Notice how most the players that come up through the Astros minor leagues are the ones that have choked in the past...Bagwell, Biggio, Hidalgo, Berkman in the 2001 playoffs....whereas most of the players Drayton has picked up via FA, are decent clutch hitters, Alou, Kent, he brought in Cammy in 1999 (his only busts were Bell and Carl everett)..if you want to do roll players, he also brought in Spiers and Viz) With Alou, he didn't do much because you didn't have Biggio and Bell getting on base for him. (or you had bagwell/berkman/or hidalgo grounding into DPs before alou got up there) Alou was always up with no one on. Alou is at his best in the clutch (that means with runners on base). Alou is a clutch performer, but he can't do it all by himself. Notice how Biggio, who has been here year in and year out, has been the root of all these problems.
your right, and I want to say, if the Hun (and not Drayton) is one that believes Biggio is still a vital part of the team, hun should be fired by Drayton, but that hasn't happened yet, which leads me to believe Drayton has some input, especially after hearing his BS comments.
It's this complacent attitude why Astros fans can let anything bad slide, like choke jobs. I don't understand these kind of comments. The bottom line is that we are not Cincinnati or Pittsburgh. Us Astro fans should not be satisfied with just winning divisions (or getting close in this case) just because other teams have really struggled over the years. Fans should crave improvement. and the Astros have not done that. This wasn't a good season. We had a 3 1/2 game lead at one point (over the cards), we had a 5 game lead over the Cubs at one point in the second half of the season, and gave it away. Some had the Astros going to the World Series. ugh....Astros fans need to be more demanding.
I'll trade ten years of .580 ball for a World Champion. Does anyone get a warm, fuzzy feeling about the 1997 division championship? Ever? By November of 1997 most *Astros* forgot about that season. I was at game five of the 1980 Championship Series against Philadelphia and I'll trade that crushing defeat for ten years of bland success and inevitable playoff disapointment. I'll laud Biggio and Bagwell's professionalism and for grinding it out day after day and I will applaud Berkman and Kent's talent, but the best clutch hitter on the Astros is Jose Vizcaino. Think about that. I think it all starts from the top. There is no culture of doing whatever it takes to win on the Astros because that has limits at every level of the club. The rhetoric of "have you done what it takes to be aq champion today?" simply doesn't jibe with reality and that has to seep down to the minds of the players. Big acquisition at the trading deadline this year was Dan Miceli? Be still me beating heart... What Drayton's comments signify to me is that, ultimately, the Astros are like a few dozen cases of pepsi on aisle three to him. They are product to sell to the shopper in his shiny ballpark and as long as people keep coming to Enron/Minute Maid/? Field, being competitive is enough.
man, i guess if some of you spout off enough cliches in this thread and really give it 110%, we'll get this thing turned around, go full steam ahead, and then just take it one day at a time from there. how many trades do y'all think a team can make? haven't we had several deadline deals recently, one including some guy named randy johnson. and haven't we brought in alou and kent and brought up berkman, ensberg, and everett, oswalt, miller, hernandez, etc? how much turnover do you need? there's basically bagwell, biggio, ausmus and hidalgo from recent times still left. and who in their right minds would get rid of bagwell at this point. i mean a local legend who just had a 37 homer season? the wheels haven't exactly come off yet for him. and if our players are so terrible and horrible in the clutch, why is everyone going to be jumping at the chance to trade us guys who are great in the clutch? and of course you're solution was....? considering the relative dearth of pitching talent there wasn't much to want. oh and there's that matter of having to give up talent to get it. should we have dropped a major leaguer off to get someone? or perhaps a minor leaguer. we don't know who they are so it really doesn't count. who needs a farm system. just as long as we make a significant deal. and JBII, what's with the "us astros fans" thing. we're not special. we try to accumulate talent w/in the constraint of a payroll like everyone else and hope it all works out. for a decade it's worked out fairly well. winning the world series or nlcs isn't exactly our birthright or anything. hunsicker has done about as good a job as you can possibly do with his budget. if you want clutch players but not as good in the regular season, then we probably never make the playoffs. and if you want clutch regular season and postseason guys, well so does everybody and it's gonna cost you. ahh, a rare breed. you know, i'd have liked to have thrown a brick through my tv several times watching the astros, but sometimes reality is reality and fixing stuff doesn't just happen b/c you really want it or just by trading everyone off. the end result could end up a lot worse.
Drayton was on the radio with Milo during the game yesterday. When Bags hit his 2nd home run, Drayton said "See, that shows you that Jeff wants to win". I found this statement to be quite insulting to us as fans because 1) As much as I feel they choked, I never doubted any of our player's desire to win and 2) Its easier to hit two home runs when the game is meaningless.
Having debates over something as subjective as "clutchness" is kinda silly, but the small amount of statistical data available, coupled with my personal observations this season, basically indicate that your statement above lacks any sort of basis in reality. BA in "close & late" situations: Ensberg - .322 Hidalgo - .306 Kent - .276 Berkman - .274
Nope. Drayton cares about making money. If he says he's happy with where we finished this year, what he really means is, "I'm happy with how much revenue was generated this year." -- droxford
Despite the fact that we got nothing from the 2 aces, and lost 2 key hitters for a stretch, we were still in first place AND they were all back playing. Oswalt was tremendous down the stretch, Miller never did get it together for whatever reason. Berks and Kent were both in the lineup when the Astros had the division lead. There is NO excuse for ending the season the way they did. I would understand if they were facing a good pitching team or a good hitting team, but Milwaukee was neither. It almost looked like they were'nt prepared to play, almost like they thought the Cubs would blow it and they would get in. Sorry gang, that didn't work. I am a long time Stros fan and have seen the worst Astro teams in history. That's why it is so frustrating watching this team finally get the talent to take us to the promised land and still fail. I have come to the conclusion that this team sorely lacks a leader. We have too many quiet leaders who lead by example. We need a fiery presence in the locker room who is not afraid to speak out. Someone who stands up and is willing to take all the blame. That would take the pressure off everyone else, because we all know this current team does not handle pressure well at all. Look, if after 162 games if you can't win your division or get a good enough record for the wild card you don't deserve to be in the playoffs. After the long season, the last thing we need are playoffs that last another 2 months.
can't disagree with that totally, but drayton does care about having some degree of success on the field, just not the ultimate prize. If the astros went 66-96 every year, there would be noticibly less fans at MMP.
