you're right...there's no telling. my gut says that bush beats gore, though. i think, just like in court, people vote for the more likeable fellow...bush seems to come off that way...and even more so in the days immediately following 9/11. but you're right...it's way too early. but i'm more scared of the unknown (like dean or someone) than i am of gore.
I have pulled out of the whole Republican-Democrat thing, out of general dissatisfaction, for so long that I really haven't been paying much attention to the particulars for the individual Dem. candidates, aside those I couldn't help knowing about, such as Lieberman, Sharpton, etc. Based on the little I do know at present, none of these guys excite me all that much, and it seems that the best candidates, on paper, continue to not run. I want to hear more about Clark's positions...I want Powell to get out from under. But in the meanwhile, could some of you give me a run-down fo why you feel that the top candidates are the best options? Kerry, Dean, etc.? I would really appreciate it. Oh, and don't bother to tell me about Graham...he's wacko.
Dean has passion, which is exactly what Gore lacks. About half the country is going to vote for Bush and about half the country is going to vote Democratic. The way you get the swing voter is being energetic, fresh, tough. The swing voter is the nonvoter of the past election. Bush got plenty of nonvoters last time (not that he won, he didn't). Bush got the drunk, "wouldn't it be funny..." voters. They have seen that it was not funny. They will stay home next time. Dean will be able to get the McCain voters. The voters that don't like politicians. The voters who like straight shooters. Plus, he is this year's media darling. That worked for Bush, Clinton and Reagan...
Your analogy is very, very appropriate. ROTFC rm95 seems to be right, by the way. Gore was the only one in the establishment that challenged Bush last fall. The party had a moment of hope... Gore was starting to make the break against Clinton and the Democratic Leadership Whores and what happened? He decided to boink his wife rather than risk the run alllll b/c of the friggin' DLC and DNC. Al From, Terry Mc****Face and all of the other sell outs can blow me. I can be a centrist (hell, I'm more conservative than many repubs on a number of issues) and still raise doubts about the war. I still can't believe that you guys screwed w/ the American flag like that. I'm in awe.
Max- Thanks Bob- What do you like about Edwards? Mac- Don't be so quick to discount Graham. Florida Senator and former Governor. Never lost an election. He's one of those Democrats that Republicans like to vote for. Also, he voted againt the Iraq war because he felt it took much needed resources away from the "War on Terror". While Dean says that he represents the Democratic wing of the Democratic party (Wellstone's line), Graham says he represents the Electable wing of the Democratic primary. I disagree with him, but many others don't. As Dean has elevated himself to media darling/ frontrunner, Graham is the new darkhorse.
Well, it'll never sell, you see. I have a friend in North Carolina, a public defender, a great lawyer (IMO) with true integrity, who has even successfully argued cases in front of the supreme court. Now he's volunteering about half his time to represent an indian tribe in NC pro bono. So of my pals, I have the most top shelf opinion of him. So, this friend of mine knows Edwards fairly well and just gushes about Edwards and his true inner quality and integrity and values. Edwards is populo-centrist, smart, very electable, but too young and naive for the national scene probably.
I hate centrist Democrats. I think they are truly on the wrong track. Republicans gave that crap up, and they have been in power since. Appeal to the base. Focus on getting the people that like you to vote, I say. Screw the soccer moms. Most of them don't vote anyway. Independents too. Polls say most Americans identify with the Democratic platform, yet Republicans get elected. Why? Because Republicans focus on getting Republicans to vote. In a way I respect Republicans more than centrist Democrats. They stand for something. I think much of it is pure evil, but that's their business, at least it's something. Americans respect that. All that said, I thought Edwards looked good in the debate. He seemed to have the fire in the belly that I do not see in Lieberman, Gephardt or even Kerry. I just don't like that he voted for the war, and have heard that he he is a New Democrat in the mold of Bill Clinton. I don't like that either. I don't think age is an issue.
I hear you, but he retains strong feelings about the poor and labor, and that's the fire you've noted. It's legit.
Yeah, that's what I gathered from the debate. I liked that. I think it would be really funny if it ended up Edwards, personal injury lawyer v. Dean, doctor.
max, the c is for crying. the barb about screwing w/ the flag alludes to the fact that the lieberman/clinton ilk really did want to wage a war for Israel and the Carter Doctrine. Bush had his reasons a) Cheney/Wolfowitz/Perle support the Carter Doctrine + creating a new ME and b) to finish the job for poppa. I hate it when people on this board write "I have always written",,, it friggin' drives me insane... but last year batman and "a few other people on this site" wrote that Iraq wasn't a threat to our national security. There were arguments between Cohen and someone on this very issue. It looks as if Batman and his crew were correct all along. BBob, do you disagree w/ my synopsis on Gore? Dean is galvanizing the troops by challenging Bush using Gore's rhetoric, which is something that the Demolicans of the party refuse. The most absurd thing about the wind in Dean's back? He's as conservative as Lieberman, but he'll actually challenge the Republicans when the challenge needs to be raised. Our "liberal savior" only stands out because he isn't p***y footing around like Kerry, Edwards, etc. MacBeth, I think you're being a bit harsh on Graham. The guy was the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee. He knows as much as the President did before we went to war. He's not "cuckoo", he's friggin' telling you like it is. If you don't like the fact that Hamas is a bigger threat to you than Saddam, or the fact that there are people in leadership in Saudi Arabia that contribute to al Qaeda, then flip a coin between Kuckinich and Bush. Oh yeah BBob, Edwards was on the Senate Intelligence Committee too. Now he's raising concerns ala Graham? WTF? He was playing to the NC base... he made a calculated decision to not challenge the President when the material was decidedly not there (per House Intelligence Committee). Edwards has zero credibility right now.
I think I'm going to wait til the peyote has left your system. I can't honestly tell what you were trying to say about Gore or Dean. Which one do you like? I actually agree with T_J that Dean would be fairly easy for W to defeat. He is easily painted "extreme." And I know you don't like Edwards. That's been plain all along. If you'd read my post, you can understand why I'll stick with the guy.
I was loving post election Gore. From the very end of the beard era to the snl appearence, I thought he was great. He was trying to appeal to the base. He was throwing away the Clinton logic of screwing the base and wooing the middle. It was great. But lest we forget what Gore did with the nomination? He played to the damn middle while myself and most of my friends voted Green. It's too important to the world to beat Bush to risk giving Gore another chance. It's early, but at this point, Dean seems the only one consistently willing to stand up to Bush. Well except Kucinich, but I saw him nailed by Chris Matthews the other night, just nailed. And if you can't stand up to Cable news, then you aint got a prayer these days.
No the Republicans simply don't use derisive language anymore. They do the same thing, they just don't use the hateful sort of rhetoric that was so easy to pigeonhole in the 90s. Basically, they now run campaigns w/ the sort of language from a northeastern republican... w/ sprinkles of wink wink statements to keep the racist, sexist, homophobes in the south interested. Remember when Falwell and Robertson were basically figureheads for the party? Bush's advisors put an end to that quickly enough. I think you have something here, but in the end, your blanket statements about centrists is wrong, imo. Senate candidates are really just screwed. They have to weigh in on every issue possible, when they really don't have sufficient data to make a statement one way or the other. Kerry and Edwards were guessing that WMD would really show up. Graham stood his ground; and Lieberman simply thinks that the fewer people that can wage war on Israel the better. It's not really Kerry's fault that he trusted the administration, or even the last administration. It is his fault for not making more of a fuss about the lack of an argument put forth by the administration (ie if the evidence was good, then we still have to legitimize a preemptive war). ps, centrist democrats "stand for things"
Please enumerate Dean's positions and tell me which ones are "extreme". Is it that he's more fiscally conservative than Bush? Is it that he has an incredibly high rating from the NRA? I agree his support of civil unions would get him in trouble in the deep South. But this just in... the other democrats support civil unions too; more importantly, we're not going to win in the deep South anyway.
... staying on the ballot in swing-states like Florida when you know you'll assist Bush's chances to win. ... telling voters that Gore and Bush are identical. ... taking advantage of a weak Democratic campaign with another self-aggrandizing quixotic one-note run for the presidency that does more to hurt the causes you supposedly care about than to help them but definitely insures that you will continue to live the good life on speaking engagement fees and the unreported income of your shady eight nonprofits for which you refuse to release ledgers. And Achebe: feel free to use logic, but we are talking about an American presidential election. Hope I'm wrong about the public's perceptions of Dean. We'll see.
I guess centist democrat is a pretty big umbrella. I look back to the last election, when they ran on "we like Bush too! just not as much as republicans do" As to the Senate, Paul Wellstone was in the Senate and I stand by every vote I am aware that he made. Kerry had the guts to vote against daddy bush's war when he was not running for president, but not this time? that's pretty hard to forgive. there was no doubt about wmds then.
