What about rapists? I would put rape closer to the violation of a home by an intruder. I'm not saying that I condone or endorse. I'm just saying that I understand.
You are one of the few posters on this BBS that I read everything you write in any thread I am interested in. You usually come with solid analysis and interesting insight. On this post...you are either being sarcastic (which I think is the case), or you just don't get it. Speeding and burglary just aren't the same thing.
So, where do you draw the line? Exactly how serious does a non-violent crime need to be before an uninvolved third party is justified in killing the criminals?
My post was a bit flippant, but there was some nugget of meaning in it. Certainly the two crimes aren't the same - but in making the argument (not necessarily Meowgi, but many of the posters in the thread), people simply argue that it was justified because a crime was being committed - nothing more. That type of justification doesn't hold if it doesn't hold for speeding or graffiti or whatnot. The proper justification would be to argue that burglary is serious enough to allow citizens to shoot-to-kill. In that scenario, then I'm curious where the line is drawn. Obviously, rape or murder qualifies; speeding does not. I understand drawing it at "life in danger", but is "property in danger" good enough to kill if there is no other threat? Let's say its OK to kill to prevent someone from fleeing a burglary as in this case. What if they just threw rocks in the window - is that enough to shoot-to-kill? What about graffiti? What if they were stealing stuff from the yard but didn't break in? Does age matter - for example, what if the burglars were 10 years old? What if the burglars were mentally ill? It seems to me when you start valuing property over life, things have the potentially to go really bad.
Home burglaries What to do if your home is burglarized--Part 1 of 2 Friday, December 11, 1998 Having your property stolen and your safe haven entered without your permission can be unsettling at best. While Carol Willis enjoyed a vacation out of town at her parent's house, burglars went through her Orange County apartment and took everything of value. "When I discovered what happened, I was horrified," says the marketing executive. "Before that burglaries were just statistics I heard on TV. I never dreamed it could happen to me." Willis's surprise at having her house broken into isn't uncommon, says Lt. Ross Moen, officer in charge of Wilshire detectives of the Los Angeles Police Department. Despite the fact that there were 1.2 million residential burglaries in the U.S. in 1996, according to FBI statistics, and almost 299,000 in California in 1997, "people generally don't think that their time has come," says Moen. "Instead they are usually very shocked that their safe haven has been invaded." When they hear the word burglary, many people think of monetary loss. The truth is, those individuals who have been burglarized find that the emotional damage can be much more devastating than losing material possessions. After a burglary, it's normal to experience a variety of emotions, including a feeling of being violated, helplessness, anger, sadness and fear. The key to healing after such a trauma, say experts, is to let these emotions run their course. Perhaps the hardest thing to deal with after being burglarized is the nagging realization that your private space has been invaded by a stranger, says psychologist Mory Framer. "People who've been burglarized used to believe that their home was the last safe place, but that security has been breached and they feel violated," says Framer, who has experience treating individuals involved in traumas such as bank robberies and explosions. Most burglary victims take this intrusion into their private world very personally. "For many people their home, which they see as an extension of themselves, has been penetrated and defiled and that which was valuable brutally taken," says L. J. West, M.D., a professor of psychiatry at UCLA. This feeling of being violated is more common among women than men. "Some psychoanalytic studies show that many women identify their homes with their bodies," says West. "They tend to decorate their homes in the same manner in which they dress. So when their home is violated, they feel violated." Another common feeling burglary causes is helplessness, says Framer. "If the police come and can't find fingerprints and don't seem to have many clues, you may think no one cares," he says. "Even though logic tells you they deal with a lot of burglaries, emotionally you feel like yours is the special case." Accompanied by this feeling of helplessness is often a fantasy about seeking revenge on the person who stole from you, says Framer. Anger is also common, says Amy Stark, Ph.D., a Tustin psychologist who specializes in child and family therapy. She had her office burglarized three times before they installed an alarm system. "You are usually angry at a lot of people," she says. "The jerk who stole from you, the police (where were they anyway?), society (what's wrong with everyone?) and yourself for not having safeguarded your property well enough." It is especially heart-breaking when you lose irreplaceable items during a burglary. "Items such as artifacts, pictures and jewelry that were given to you by your parents or other significant people are links to your past, and it is very painful to lose them," says Framer, who had a rare and valuable watch given to him by his father stolen from his home. "Personal, nostalgic items, whether they are valuable or not, are irreplaceable," says Stark. "Their sentimental value is immeasurable and you will probably always be sad about losing them." After that first burglary, Willis's home was broken into three more times. "The first time, I was younger and hadn't accumulated much," she says. "They stole my television and stereo, but insurance replaced them. What was really upsetting was the third and fourth burglaries when they stole irreplaceable jewelry that had been given to me over the years." Now Willis keeps all of her good jewelry in a safe deposit box. Perhaps the most unsettling emotional reaction to being burglarized is fear. "Most of us think of our home as a safe castle, and it's very frightening to have that last bastion of our security breached," says Framer. "It's not uncommon for burglary victims to feel unsafe and have trouble sleeping." For some people sleeplessness can last a couple weeks, while others will remain hypervigilant and easily startled out of slumber for many months afterward. Whatever you do after a burglary, never minimize your feelings. "People may say to you, thank goodness you weren't home. Although it is fortunate you weren't harmed, it doesn't mean you shouldn't feel anything," says Framer. "You've been intruded upon and it's okay to feel badly." To make yourself feel better after a break-in, there are several things experts suggest doing and not doing. "While your first instinct may be to move, don't act on that initial reaction; wait and see if you still feel that way in a few weeks," says Framer. Instead of wringing your hands, the best approach is to take preventative action. "Be aware and informed and educate yourself, because that is likely to give you some control and power back," says Framer. Contact your local police and have them come out and talk to your neighborhood about burglary prevention and what you can do to make your home more secure. Form a neighborhood watch, which will make you feel less alone and could very well prevent future burglaries. "Every possible precaution you can take is positive because it gives you a feeling of empowerment," says Stark. "Just don't go overboard and barricade yourself in your home." No matter how much you do to protect yourself against burglary, it's also important to realize that lightening does strike twice or even four times as in Willis's case. "There is no absolute immunity from anything in this world," says Framer. "You can take every possible precaution and still be vulnerable." Even though Willis took the police's advice and did everything they suggested after her first burglary, she was burglarized again. At one point she even moved to a nicer neighborhood and thought she was finally safe, but she came home one day to an open door and a missing VCR. She had apparently scared the burglar out the back. "I remember thinking that I just couldn't get away from it all," she says. "I did everything you were supposed to do, but it happened over and over, and it was really hard to feel secure." Whether you're burglarized once or four times like Willis, one thing is for sure, you're not likely to ever forget the experience. "It's very scary to have a stranger in your home uninvited, and a part of you will always remember that it happened," says Stark, who never leaves valuables in the office anymore. "Since it occurred once, you know that it could occur again and it makes it very hard to plan ahead--it's like the threat of an earthquake." Since she married seven years ago, Willis hasn't been burglarized. She is aware, however, that it could happen again at any time. "When I'm the last one to leave the house and I'm locking up, I think about it every single time," she says. http://www.inman.com/inmannews.aspx?ID=11734
Firstly, I think it's a bad thing when anyone is killed. I'm personally against the death penalty for any crime, but come on, burglary of an unoccupied house? Suppose the law allowed for the execution of all thieves. Would you consider such a law just? And what about the precedent that would set? You want every moron with a shotgun to feel free to set up shop as a neighborhood vigilante, coming up with his own standards for when he should use lethal force? Moreover, there's a difference between the consequences of an action being reasonably expectable and those consequences being justifiable. If I'm driving the speed limit on I-10, I realize it's possible that someone will want to harm me. Yet, if someone were to bump my car or shoot at me, they would in no way be justified in those actions, even though they were predictable consequences of my actions. Now, this is an example where most people who weren't driving behind me would agree that I didn't do anything wrong, unlike the burglars, but it does show that negative consequences of one's action are not necessarily justified just because one is aware that they might happen. We as a society have decided that when people commit crimes, there should be predictable negative consequences for those actions. We have even established specific rules for what punishments should be issued to those who commit specific crimes. When these punisments are exceeded or are carried out without the due process of law, the rights of the perpetrator are violated. When a person is killed in the absence of a self-defense motive, especially for a crime that society has deemed not to merit the death sentence, it is both abhorrent and illegal.
Except though they are being punished if you believe they got what they deserved. As for stopping them isn't collecting as much information about them as you can to gvie to the police so they can be arrested also trying to stop them? Also should armed citizens act everytime they believe a crime is being committed? That is a recipe for vigilantism, potentially shootings from misunderstanding and also to armed citizens getting killed too.
That's true I've had homes burglerized, once when I was there and I thought it was my roomate and once i even punched a guy who was happened to be trying to climb through the window above my bed. So yes I fully know how you feel violated, helpless and angry. That said though first off it wasn't this guy who was being robbed and while its understandable that he was angry about seeing his neighbor robbed to me that still doesn't merit going out and shooting them. Second, many things can make you angry but we don't go around justifying things by the fact that it makes you angry. For instance if I'm cut off while I'm driving I might feel very angry but that doesn't justify me running them off the road.
