Had an interesting conversation with a fellow fan the other day. He said that the Rocks are a team of slashers, but had no creators. My initial response was staring at him intently through raised eyebrows, but I let him explain his point. In his opinion, a creator is just that, has the ability to create any shot at anytime, for himself or his teammates. Now, he did say that he felt that Steve had made a huge leap towards becoming a creator, especially towards the latter part of the season when he started pulling up for Js and reading the defender, but is still more of a slasher who passes. He added that, as Bryant Gumbel says "his words", Cuttino is also a slasher who tries to pass, which is fine considering his role (scoring) on the team. He said that the Rocks haven't had a creator since, get this, Drexler retired. He said that Pippen isn't a creator, neither is Cassell, and Francis will be one if he continues to read defenses and pick his spots. Mooch, in his opinion, was a lot like Stockton, a set-up man who directs traffic moreso than create shots. He said that with their current makeup, the Rocks will go to the next level when Francis finally evolves as a creator, that teams with good slashers are tough, but teams with slashers and creator(s) is doubly tough and can cause major headaches for any team. Anybody agree\disagree with this view of Francis and Cat not being creators? Thoughts? ------------------ [This message has been edited by Live (edited April 27, 2001).]
In being a slasher, is one not a creator too? What "creation" is it that your friend thinks Steve and Cat have yet to create? The point is without basis unless he gives you more detailed information on what he thinks a creator is. You mentioned Stockton as a creator, directing traffic. While directing traffic can create opportunities, it is simply a different means of "creating" them. ------------------ HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'. KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh! HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv'.
I have no idea what he means by "creator" as a defining noun when he obviously removes "playmaker" from it by saying Stockton/Cassell are not creators. ugh. And he further seems to think Barkley was not a "creator" with his Drexler comment, which tends to make me believe he thinks only guards can be "creators". And his requirement "create any shot at anytime" tends to be a point of eliminating the Dream from comparison to Jordan. So, what do we have, only shooting guards/SFs can be creators: Iverson, Kobe, Stackhouse, Jamison, Carter.... Hell, I can't even begin to argue with him, because he has created his own little box of reason and defined all its parameters. Anyone can do that. The more common categories are playmaker/shooter/scorer...as in Stockton/Rice/Iverson. His "creator" has most in common to what I've heard the Hall-of-Famers call a "scorer". Francis and Mobley are most definitely scorers, who can create their own shots. Making a stipulation that a creater must be able to create any shot is unnecessary to be successful...like Jabbar needed more than a left-handed and right-handed hook shot to create 35,000 (?) points for himself. In my book of definitions, a Star Scorer can get their shot off; they can make their patented move without the help from teammates. They only need one goto move to also create the easy bucket by faking the goto or getting a defender to back away. They are successful enough to burn any one-on-one defense to the point they must be double teamed....Mobley and Francis are in that class, imo. A Superstar Scorer can still get their shot off against double teams. Francis and Mobley can't do that, yet. To get there Francis will need a better go-to move than his cross-over or his back-wiggle-and-under move (whatever that is), and Mobley will need to start seeing his teammates better. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 27, 2001).]
Yeah, have your friend define what he means by "creator." That's confusing me. ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
First of all, this was not a friend of mine. I've never seen this man before, and doubt I will ever see him again. This conversation, if that's what you want to call it, was in a public place. Remember, this is TEXAS, and people WILL start a conversation with you if they think you look friendly. Now I wouldn't say that I agree with him, but I did sort of understand his point, not to say that I agree with him. Problem is, he was limiting his argument to perimeter players, I think, and unfortunately wasn't taking into consideration the differences in traditional offensive philosophies and strategies. I mean, true Stockton isn't asked to consistently break his man down off the dribble, but we all know that he's as good a "creator" or "playmaker" as any. And given the way the Kings play, with Divac and Webber at the High Post, those two are as much "playmakers" or "creators" as Williams. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Live (edited April 27, 2001).]
I agree, on second thought, he contradicted himself somewhat didn't he. A "creator" can create shots for himself or others depending on what the defense gives him, yet Stockton isn't a "creator"? He is the master at distibuting the ball according to the defense, especially in transition, that's the "heart and soul" of the Pick-and-Roll. Sounds like a creator to me! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Live (edited April 27, 2001).]
Achebe with the 3 one-liners in a thread that sucks. HISS, HISS is right The OlajuWons, You've heard hall-of-famers and coaches say Scorer vs Shooter, no? They always say a shooter will make the shot, just give him an inch. Shooter's usually have ultra-quick releases and fadeaways, (Rice, Reggie, Smith, Ellis, Hersey, Horny, Ainge). So do many Scorers. The difference is (they say, and I agree) is that Scorers can get their shot off as the entry point to a play; that is, they receive an entry pass (wing, low post, high post, key, whereever they like it) while being draped by a defender, or otherwise in a position where they clearly are not "open" yet. They can then use the dribble or spin moves to create a shot. Shooters on the other hand need teammates and play calls to get them that inch of space....they have trouble creating separation from the defender by themselves relative to a Scorer. That's the definition I've heard several players/coaches use. And it is a practical definition (unlike this weird "creator" thing) because coaches use scorers and shooters differently in their systems. To the coach, it doesn't matter how the scorers gets separation. What you are saying to me is singling out one type of Scorer as not to be included...that is what you call a slasher. Does it really matter how the Scorer creates their own shot. If the Mobley/KJ's can blow by one-on-one defense at will, now exactly why would they complicate the matter by spinning, doing cross-overs, turnaround jumpers, etc when they can just take it all the way for 101 different layups? If you can consistently score from an entry pass, you are a scorer. Why does it matter how you do it. Aren't you really just saying players who handle the ball and have a slashing goto move need to show more complicated/dangerous stuff to be called a Scorer. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 27, 2001).]
I think he means the Creator (as in Heaven and Earth). He's the only that could do it, imo. Did he seem religious? ------------------
This mythical "creator" does not exist. There is no player alive or dead who could get any shot he wanted for himself or his teammates. If there was, he would have taken nothing but dunks (100% accuracy) and scored 100+ points a game, while going undefeated in his career. ------------------ I'm about to boldly go where many men have gone before.
Yeah, I thought it close-minded of him to single out perimeter players. Maybe that was his intention, I don't know and probably never will. There have been several Cs (Kareem, Dream, Walton, Wilt, Issel, Cowens, and on and on), and Fs (Bird, Dominique, Dr. J, Baylor, Malone, Barkley, and on and on) who would MOST DEFINITELY qualify as "creators" though they weren't their team's primary ball-handler. ------------------
WELL ANYBODY who has ever played basketball or knows "REal Basketball" would know the difference between the two. I AGREE with your friend to a point,dewd, here is why a slasher can be an athlete anybody who can dribble and jump and is quick can break his defender down and take him to the whole. Vernon Maxwell was a good slasher, how many times did we see him get the ball at the top of the key, and then instead of chinking up a sporadic 3 pointer, he would take his man to the hoop, only to dunk on him.------> ok any athlete like i said who can dribble, jump and is quick and take his man to the hole and jam it in his ass. A creator , while it would be awesome to have one who can jump , and is quick and athletic...LOOK AT KIDD.....he can dribble, he can shoot now, but he also can drive in the lane then kick it out to an open 3 point shooter, who then drains it.. Kidd can shoot sure, he can dunk when alone, he can pass, and he could also take his guy one on one, but he also knows how to find the open man, in traffic or 2 on 1... any situation he can get the open guy the ball... Creator at his best is Kidd, Stoudamire, Francis to me is almost more creator now than slasher, Mobley I agree is slasher, but I sure wish Francis would slash more, he needs to start averaging atleast 25 points a game if we're ever gonna go to the next level. I dont care who we draft or bring in, he needs to raise his scoring average, and quit beins so "un selfish" ------------------ got milf?
by the way i could have sworn i went in and changed that "whole" to "hole"....hmmmmmmm? ------------------ got milf?
MEOW, HISS, HISS!! Sorry you don't like this thread! Well, no I'm not, I lied! I guess you know how I feel about the, oh, 100 or so... "Is CWebb coming here" "I hope CWebb comes here" "Let's trade Cato for CWebb, that's fair" threads that are started.... EVERY.... FREAKIN'.... DAY!!!!!!!! Feel free to carry on! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Live (edited April 27, 2001).]
mobley couldnt make the extra pass, I dont think he has it in him. creator knows where to find the open man, shooter is thinking score first.. JOrdan is Jordan a scorer and creator /athlete GOD of basketball he dont count, he could blow by you, or get tripple teamed and find open man by default. I just think creator or scorer , i mean i see what your saying a good player can score on his man sure, but sometimes a pass , an extra pass, setting up your own shot even, or getting everyone involved is creating in my books.... Creating ways for your teammates to do good, for your team to win, who knows, its weird concept i guess ------------------ got milf?
