I'm all up for Camby, especially after I saw what he went through last year's playoffs. You could see the heart, as he was playing through injuries. Just a question, does anyone know if Camby can hit the consistent outside jumper or not? ------------------ A big time draft site has tried to stunt our growth, but we will succeed! The little draft site that could!
Crisco, Since Pitino almost gave away Fortson for nothing earlier, I think that KT and #1 for Fortson and Griffith is way too much to offer. If you package the #1 with KT, Mobley or Cato, you've got to get a proven star for that deal. Basically, with busts and underachievers possible with 6th picks, I'm applying the spirit of "don't count yer chickens before they hatch", by saying... We can trade a sprite chicken or two and an egg for a rooster who rules the coop. Namely, Duncan and Webber who might threaten to test free agency. If you can't land stud roosters this year, keep your chickens and trade the egg for more proven chickens. So, did my metaphor go too far? ------------------ The farther the Rockets move down the standings, the farther I move down the bleachers. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited March 23, 2000).]
I think Camby would be a great addition too. He would be about as good a defender as you can find for Garnett, Webber, McDyess or Duncan, who I think are the guys to think about as forwards tough in the low block. Malone doesn't have that many years to worry about that match-up and though Rasheed is a very good overall player, I don't think he is dominant enough on the offensive end to worry about him specifically in building your team. The guy Camby would have most trouble againt is Duncan, because he uses his bulk along with height and skills, but there is no guarante he stays in the west nor stays playing power forward. Do ya'll think Finley is a possibility?? He is a great team player to have--really a more explosive and taller version of SA who can play the 3 better. I would send something like Mobley or SA + Walt + mid-first rounder for him. If we could somehow get front-line combination of Finley, Camby & Cato OR Finley, KT & Kandi I would really like the looks of things for years to come. I would part with the follwing commodities to make it happen--Mobley or SA (I don't want to trade either but we are trying to get Finley here and I would give 1 up) + Walt + Drew or Los, +KT or Cato + this years high (very good) #1 + another probable mid/low first rounder. Just more food for thought. ------------------
RF34, I agree. Try using the #1 to pry a star away from someone. If that fails, pull a #1 and Drew for some proven young PF and other player. If that fails, pick the best athlete available at our pick (don't reach for a PF) and shop him around with various combinations of our trade bait trio Mobley/KT/Cato for a superstar. If that fails again, spend next season with a huge overload at SG/SF or try a trade for a quality young not-quite-star PF/C. Being overloaded at SG/SF won't get us to the playoffs next year, but we will get plenty of trade offers. We might be able to land a star next summer. I just don't expect this lottery pick to do it by itself. And remember, the exemption expires on Aug 1st, the first day of Free Agency. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited March 23, 2000).]
And remember, the exemption expires on Aug 1st, the first day of Free Agency. Are you refering to the traded player exception? I thought that exception was good for one year? So, wouldn't we have up until the end of August which is one year after the Francis trade? ------------------
If it expired on the first day of free agency, that would mean we couldn't use it in a sign-trade. Hope Aelliot is correct. ------------------ "Sources tell me that the Blazers held a team meeting after the two losses..." - "Pistol" Pete Vescey with the inside scoop.
Aelliot, I was thinking at the end of the NBAs fiscal year, which is Aug 1. But now that you mention it, it was probably me just thinking use it before Aug 1, that is, before player salaries go up on the new fiscal year. It effectively loses it's value equal to salary and salary cap inflation--roughly 12.5%. You bring up another good point. If they are marked at one year from trade, which I'm sure you are correct, note that this is a combined exemption (part from Francis, part from Pippen trades). So, the two caches would each have different anniversary dates. ------------------ The farther the Rockets move down the standings, the farther I move down the bleachers.
popeye, In an earlier post, you mentioned that Duncan had thoughts about Miami, Orlando, Houston and Toronto(?). If Miami has the opportunity, wouldn't they move PJ if that would enable them to sign Duncan? Would the Duncan scenario be a sign-and-trade or just outright signing elsewhere? Mango ------------------ It could be worse ....... you could have been born a Jazz fan!!!!
HeyPartner, Yeah, there would be two different expriration dates. That's why I quoted the Francis date, since it's the earlier of the two and is worth a larger amount. After all, if we don't use the entire aggregated amounts of the exemptions in a single deal, then it's not going to be much of a trade. ------------------
So your argument is that his blocks have dropped because of a combination of playing with Ewing (by the way, how long was he out?), Johnson and Thomas (neither is exactly a shot-blocking force, so I don't think they're stealing any blocks from him). As for losing his starter minutes, he's averaging about 5 less mpg than the season where he averaged 3.65 bpg. That must have been an active 5 min to make that extra 1.63 bpg. And as for potential, you have to realize that this is Cato's first season where he's gotten really significant minutes, so I doubt that we've seen his full potential either. You cite the Pacers series as evidence of Camby's potential, but that really doesn't prove anything. It was short stretch of games, where he was hot on defense. If that were a good way to rate players, then I would just say look at Cato during the preseason or point out his 2 blocks against Shaq (something you'll probably never see Camby do). "Sometimes Duncan"? "Ideal" for defending Garnett? Either of those guys would own Camby. Also, I imagine he would likely be schooled by Webber and Rasheed also. The PFs I am "worried about" are every PF that weighs more than a paltry 225 lbs that will bang on him all night and send him to the bench with his usually foul trouble woes (3.5 fouls/game). So early into the rebuilding process, you should be worried about chemistry. You don't get better chemistry by making a major trade every season. If you don't think that having a tall shot-blocking center with limited offensive skills is good for chemistry, then you might consider a trade, but you shouldn't trade that player for "a tall shot-blocking center with limited offensive skills". Where's the progress in that. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Launch Pad (edited March 23, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Launch Pad (edited March 23, 2000).]
Launch Pad: I meant that with Thomas,Johnson, and Ewing, Camby does not get many minutes. Last season, up until the season's final weeks, Camby didn't get consistent minutes and struggled to find his niche on the team. I believe that with starter's minutes he can produce for the Rockets. As far as Camby's vs. Cato's potential, I would agree they are even. However, this wouldn't even be an issue if Cato wouldn't whine and insist on coming off the bench. How quickly we forget. Do you not remember the '95 Phoenix series where a tall,thin,quick leaping (sounds like Camby) Robert Horry held Charles Barkley in check? Of course, the power forwards you mention (Webber, Garnett, Duncan) are superstars, and cannot be shut down by any sole player, but I believe the quick leaping mold of players can keep them in check until the double-team comes. Robert Horry gave up 30+ pounds to Charles Barkley, but gave him fits with his long arms and shot blocking ability. As far as Garnett, he is only 220 pounds (5 less than Camby), so using your thinking, shouldn't he be a liability on the defensive end? Why build chemistry within a group you don't want to be the final product? I say we end the major construction this offseason, and then we can keep the core in place and begin building chemistry. What's the difference between Camby and Cato, you ask? One, Camby doesn't have the crybaby attitude and he brings it every night, and two, he doesn't go after every pump fake trying to block the shot. He uses his natural defensive instincts along with his physical ability to make plays. ------------------ "Sources tell me that the Blazers held a team meeting after the two losses..." - "Pistol" Pete Vescey with the inside scoop.
I understand what you're saying, so let me rephrase my point. Camby already is getting starter minutes and has been this entire season. Playing only 5 mpg less than he did in his 3.65 bpg season, he is still down 1.63 bpg. I agree with you that Cato doesn't always have enough heart and I'm not even opposed to trading him. I just don't agree for a trade for a player that is basically the same in terms of skills. How quickly we forget. Chuck is only 6'4 1/2" playing against a much quicker 6'10" player. Horry probably didn't need to jump much to play decent D on Chuck. I respect your argument about Garnett also, but don't forget that Garnett is playing out of position. He is much better suited to play SF, but who else do the Wolves have than can really play the PF position? Anyway, I would argue that Garnett is a much better team defender than Camby and is much more disciplined and less foul-prone. What's the difference between Camby and Cato you ask? One Camby's not on the 6th worst team in the league (that would definitely degrade a lot of peoples' attitudes), two, Camby is more foul prone, three, Camby is 30 lbs lighter, and four, I have seen Camby go after a few pump fakes in the games that I've watched. Bottom line: If you really think that we need a change, then look for a change. Find a center who can play D and rebound or that actually has a jump-shot, but don't go for one that falls into the exact same mold (minus the extra 30 lbs of course ) as the guy you've already got. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Launch Pad (edited March 23, 2000).]
Whoa...I hope you are talking about our orlando or detriot first. No way Fortson and Griffen even equals our first. You have to play the value game and during draft time...high draft picks are always worth more than they seem. What do you people see in Fortson and Griffen anyways? We are loaded at Guards and Fortson and Kenny are both alike... ------------------ A big time draft site has tried to stunt our growth, but we will succeed! The little draft site that could! [This message has been edited by rocketsfan34 (edited March 23, 2000).]
I think a 6th pick for Fortson and Griffen is a good deal. Look back at Fortson's college days and tell me whether you can honestly say Fizer is better, for instance. Also, tell me how much a proven 4th leading rebounder in the NBA, athletic defensive hound scoring soundly at 11-12ppg is worth....that's Fortson last year, before he met Pitino. ------------------ The farther the Rockets move down the standings, the farther I move down the bleachers.
Why do you want to do a one for 2 deal? We have enough quality depth. Shouldn't we be trading out 6th pick for a established star? I thought we were trying to find a star to compliment Francis, not create more minute problems. ------------------ A big time draft site has tried to stunt our growth, but we will succeed! The little draft site that could!
Let's look at their actual stats instead of just throwing out statements like, "Camby is more foul prone." <BR CLEAR="all"><CENTER><TABLE BORDER ALIGN="center"><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center">STATS</DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>MIN</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PTS</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FG%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FT%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>REB</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>AST</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>STL</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>BLK</CENTER></DIV></TD><=<TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>TOs</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PFs</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Cato</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>16.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>5.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>47.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>61.7</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>4.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.48</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.46</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.7</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.4</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Camby</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>27.8</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>11.5</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>46.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>63.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>6.7</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.92</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.41</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.7</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.2</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER> How do they match up in a 48 minute comparison? <BR CLEAR="all"><CENTER><TABLE BORDER ALIGN="center"><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center">STATS</DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>MIN</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PTS</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FG%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FT%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>REB</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>AST</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>STL</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>BLK</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>TOs</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PFs</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Cato</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>48.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>15.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>47.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>61.7</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>12.5</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.43</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>4.35</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>7.2</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Camby</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>48.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>19.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>46.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>63.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>11.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.59</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>4.16</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>5.5</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER> So, at the tables show, there are many similarities between the two players. But, there are some differences also. Camby has the edge in: Points, Assists, and Fouls Cato has the edge in: Turnovers, Rebounds slightly (0.9), and blocks ever-so-slightly (0.19) But, the answers aren't all in the numbers. Cato has stated that he doesn't feel comfortable when he starts. But, I'm sure he feels comfortable while collecting in on his $45 million contract. So far I haven't heard anything about Camby complaining about getting minutes. Also, if we got Camby, I'd hope he'd be our PF. He's definitely not big enough to play Center. But, then again I think Cato should be our PF too. Yes, Camby would be on the lighter side as a PF, but his long arms and jumping ability make up for it. I do think Camby is more of an offensive threat than Cato too. On a team with Allan Houston, Latrell Sprewell, Larry Johnson, and Patrick Ewing eating shots like HamilTON ate donuts, he's still averaging 10.4 points One other area that Camby is better in that Cato is picking his game up in the playoffs. Camy improves his FG%, Steals, TOs, and Rebounding. On the other hand Cato actually plays worse in every category. "I agree with you that Cato doesn't always have enough heart and I'm not even opposed to trading him. I just don't agree for a trade for a player that is basically the same in terms of skills." So, who do you expect to get for Cato? Garnett? Duncan? Mourning? We're gonna get a player who has similar potential and game for Cato, why not let it be Camby? Besides, why wouldn't we trade for another Cato who has a better attitude? Don't we all want Cato to have a better attitude? Well, if we do this trade you can call Camby "Cato" if it makes you feel better. -------------------------- "I have a DREAM .... His name's Hakeem!" [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited March 24, 2000).]
Hmmm, interesting tables. Now let me tell you why the 48 min breakdown is a cute but largely useless stat. First, it is based on the following several assumptions which simply are not valid: Assumption 1) A player will not get tired and will play as hard for the entire 48 min. Do I need to convince anyone that this isn't true. Assumption 2) In terms of fouls, a player will be just as likely to pick up his 6th foul as his 1st (in other words, the same foul/min probability). Obviously, a smart player will either back off a bit when in foul trouble, or will be pulled out of the game, before it becomes an issue. Assumption 3) Players never experience hot or cold streaks. Players simply will not play at the same level throughout a game. Sometimes, they'll be in the zone; sometimes, they'll be in a slump. I could go on with several more, but I think you can see my point. Here's a better stat for you: Cato has fouled out of 1 game this season and Camby has fouled out of 5. Another argument that assumes that people don't change. This is Cato's 1st year where he is getting really significant minutes. As he gets used to being a part of the team, it is likely that he will want to take a larger role. Did you expect him to come into this franchise and say, "Hey Dream, step aside and let me show you what mad skills I've got from playing less that 10 mpg last season." There seems to be a strange conception that PFs aren't "big" players. Gee, I wonder why they're called "power" forwards then? Unless, you think Pig can handle center, I'd suggest finding yourself a center over a PF. Do you honestly believe that Camby is creating his own shots? He has no jump shot and his post moves are mediocre on a good day. All his 10.4 ppg tell me is NY has a better passing game than Houston, therefore allowing him to get his 10.4 ppg (BTW that's not a whole lot more impressive than Cato's 8.4 ppg alongside Francis and alternatingly hot Cat, SA, and Walt in less PT). Here's a huge assumption. How many times have you actually seen Cato in the playoffs. For all you know, he could become a madman in the playoffs. That's like saying apples are much better than oranges, before you've even tasted an orange. I see, so there are only 2 types of players in this league: 1) players of the exact same prototype as the one that you want to dump, or 2)superstars. Hmmm, you see, I thought that you could scout for several distinctive qualities in a center. For example: a) excellent rebounder b) defensive stopper (doesn't always have to be a shotblocker). c) Someone with low-post moves and quickness. d) Someone with a jump-shot. e) Someone with a great power game. A center doesn't have to have all of the aforementioned qulaities, but pick one, two, or any combination of any of the qualities above and Presto! You have a center of a different mold than the guy you got that is not necessarily a superstar. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Launch Pad (edited March 25, 2000).]
Ostertagged: adverb- to have one's team sign a fiscally irresponsible contract because of one game in the playoffs. Catoed: adverb- to have one's team sign a fiscally irresponsible contract because of one game in the preseason. how could CD and RudyT do something dumber than the father and son duo Kermit and Scott? When they signed Ostertag there wasn't a nice CBA to protect you from yourself. It's also now incredibly expensive to exceed the cap b/c of the luxury tax. I opposed the CBA in the beginning for a number of reasons. 1) because I am a fan of Charles Barkley, not Les Alexander. 2) if i'm not worth x dollars an hour, don't pay me x dollars an hour 3) ADM, Supermarket to the World. Anyone here of price-gouging? What's it called when a group convinces each of its competitors to destroy a vendor's (player) position of power by combining forces? Oh yeah, it's called America, where we force Bananas on France and then wonder why the OPEC nations are cashing in on our economy. The jury's still out on the cba (will the lack of player movement make the league boring?) but one thing was somewhat sure before this damn contract was signed. The Rockets could make well informed contractual decisions. they didn't though. Were there many competitors for Cato's services this upcoming season? Could the Rockets not have matched those contracts? Would Cato have been offended by playing out longer than a preseason before getting the bounty (he was effectively a rookie before he signed the contract considering he played no real time)? Who knows. One thing's for certain though. If Cato doesn't quickly develop a strong game, he will be this team's undoing as easily as Juwan Howard is the Wizard's. But there's a difference of 13~ million dollars in their contracts. OK, so the Wizards are really, really screwed. My point is that this league will be made up of 2-5 million dollar contracts within 3-5 years. The CBA will be that effective. Overhauled teams with 30 million dollars under the cap will only be around periodically to grab free agents. So how much did you pay your underachieving, salary cap killing player today? ------------------
I have a quick question: What allowed us to get the 4.5 million trade exception? What did we do that made the league say "They now have this trade exception", I do know we got it from the Pippen and the Francis trades, but what was the reasoning behind it? Also, did the Rockets know they had it coming to them when they made the trades? ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
A "youngster"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. Now that is funny! I just can't get this image out in my head of DREAMer leaning heavily on a cane while shaking his feeble quivering fists at all those dadgum rock and roll lovin youngsters on this BBS. If a little background would help, . . . er, oldtimer, I'm a 27 yr old graduate student in Neuroscience at the University of Florida and as such, have had more than a few courses in statistics and logic (a quick shout-out for the Gators knocking out Duke). So let's begin and I'll too also try to play nice (and not talk over your head, oldtimer) . . . Great logic, there, oldtimer. Use another assumption to defend an assumption. The point is that you cannot assume that based on the performances in PT when the player isn't tired, that you will acurately predict that same player's performance when he is tired. Also, since your new assumption doesn't take into account the differences in endurance between different players, then no, their stats over 48 min may very well be not comparable. Okay, I was talking about the uselessness of the 48 min breakdown and you're back on Cato vs. Camby. The train is leaving the station "oldtimer", get on board. Yes, they do take the averages of all slums and hot streaks in context of the average mpg, but they cannot tell you whether "the slums" or the "hot streaks" will predominate, when the players average PT is increased to 48 min/game. Okay, it's a better stat, because that puts Camby in the top 20 overall in the league this year in number of times that a player has fouled out (and guess what old-timer there are lot of people not on that list that average way mor mpg than him). Also, you expect big men who get less minutes to foul more, because they are less concerned about fouling out, so your foul/min averages hardly tells the whole story (e.g. this is the basis of Hack-a-Shaq (i.e. scrubs come in and foul as much as they can)). The difference of 2.1 team assists isn't that much. You still haven't given me any evidence that Camby is making his own shots. This is more likely an issue of Spree and Houston drawing double teams leaving him open. Again, cute table, but rather worthless. Now, it doesn't really reflect the improvement in both Francis and Mobley's games through the course of the season (i.e. they are likely averaging more now than at the beginning of the season) and it doesn't reflect the "hot" games that we sometimes see out of Walt or Shandon. Let's see another chart angry boy . . . er, hornory oldtimer. So, I see judging from Cato's 8.4 mpg playoff average, you can make an accurate assessment of his playoff ability (let's please just ignore the fact that 8.4 mpg was lower than his mpg average for the Blazers during the regular season). The rest of the "issues" that you addressed can be answered by going back and rereading our previous posts. BTW if any of this post seemed patronizing or condescending oldtimer, well, that was just a taste of your own medicine. If you'd like to see an example of an effective and well-presented counter-argument, read up a little bit to thacabbage's posts. He attacked my arguments and not me. Lay off the condescending attitude and I'll be happy to do the same. ------------------
