Comparing Drew and Francis

One thing I would like to see is how the two perform together when on the court. Like when Drew runs the point and Steve is at the 2, how would they perform and vice versa. Damn, maybe Rudy would like to see this stuff too

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There is no offense without a good defense.

 

This feature sounds great! I would like to see a comparison of their potentials at the position and of the different shapes the team would take with each of them at the helm. From the stats, I still like Francis. Those TO's will definitely go down with experience, and I think we can realistically expect all of Francis' stats to improve as he and the team grows. I'm not sure I can say that as much with Drew, but his stats look real good for a backup.

 

One other stat that you could use is
shots per 48 minutes.

I think I used the right formula to get the number down.

Francis=19.7 shots per 48
Drew=16.1 shots per 48

 

Clutch,

I'm on both sides of the camp. I think we have a longterm PG in Francis. And I think we have the makings of the best back-up point guard in recent Rocket's history in Drew. You are right, in your post of something like 10 days ago, when you said there is noticeable improvement from game 1 in Drew.

I can help out in one regard. I'll volunteer to track the fg% of his runner in the lane. If he gets that to over 50%, we've got a longterm hold here.

In all fairness to Drew, Francis and the team, I'd prefer not to fuel the dabate. What I'd like to see is a comparison of Drew to Kenny Smith. That should show everyone how good of a back-up PG we have in Drew.

Matter of fact: Discounting Cassell (who deserved to start), name me a better back-up for the Rockets this decade:

let's see the list:

1. Maloney
2. Price
3. Davis/Livingston
4. Scotty Brooks
5. Avery Johnson (no shot in those days)
6. Allen Leavell (I liked him)
7. Sleepy Floyd (didn't really play a true pg as I recall--and really sucked it up when Scotty started getting minutes)

anyone care to take us back farther

 

Clutch any simple way to track a couple of things:

1. Rockets (team) scoring per minute when Francis/Drew is in the game.

2. Opposition (team) scoring per minute when Francis/Drew is in the game.

3. Anyway to track the oppositions PG stats vs Drew & Francis. To see who is playing better defensively at the point.

Even if we can't do this for the previous games, I would be interested seeing how these things shape up, especially 1 & 2, to see who may be getting us leads, or keeping us close, or conversley giving up leads.

 

How about highlights(dunks) per game?

minutes of trash talk per game?

Decibal level of the Houston fans when one is in the game compared to the other.

You know, important stuff like that...

 

4chuckie,

There would have to be a big disclaimer with any conclusion based on the stats you suggest, since the 2 players would likely never guard the same person.

the starter would be playing with and against starters, and the sub...vice versa

in fact, that's a big problem with clutch's whole stat comparison to begin with. You'd have to measure Drew's starting minutes to Francis's starting minutes.

show me how Drew stack's up against 2nd-teamers of times past. 4chuckie, do you remember whether sleepy floyd played pg. maybe on paper, but i don't recall him playing like one.

 

HP:
I think you are partly right, but often times starters aren't playing against starters and subs not against subs. Except for the first and last 3-4 minutes each games there are different matchups.

No team uses the same rotation.

I think the stat would still be relevant, but I'm not sure if it could be calculated.

But I think this would be secondary to points 1 & 2. How much we score and don't score when they are playing.

 

Clutch,
I hope your doing this to prove this point.....Bryce Drew has shown marked improvement and will be a solid NBA player.
Steve Francis has been forced to deal with that post it offense initially,bad coaching decisions by Rudy T,and giant established egos.Despite not being the #1 option and having to deal with all this he has put up 17,6,and 6.These stats are skewed as he has not been used properly on a consistent basis.He should be going to the line 10-15 times a game.....The guy is destined for superstardom.
You do one helluva job on this site and I appreciate it.Just don't perpetuate this ridiculus comparison by putting it on the FRONT PAGE.I am tired of hearing about it.If this is meant to put to an end for good the comparisons,great.I believe the whole thing is a moot point though.Bryce is probably going to get dealt in a package for needs(power forward and another player)
Once again,I love the site and what you've done,but this IMO is not a good move.
Right now we have a more pressing issues.....personnell decisions and another one that few people are willing to acknowledge(and it pains me to say this)...RUDY T.....I know we've lost Dream and Chuck but this has been going on before they went down and after.I really believe he should be GM.This wounds my heart after watching him as a player and help bring us titles as a coach. Peace HH Go Rockets!
I know you are trying to stress positives and create lively intelligent debates.Please don't take this the wrong way.

[This message has been edited by Hardwood Hammer (edited December 14, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Hardwood Hammer (edited December 14, 1999).]

 

ok 4chuckie. Stats are fun. Personally, I don't need this type of comparison, I like both players, unless Clutch wants input with charting games. I'm going to every home game anyhow, I don't mind charting things.

Here's some things to chart:
1. Drew and Francis's success rate at penetration. (foul, assist, fg count as success--that's Rudy's formula)
2. Transition success rates
3. Off subject, i'd like to see Mobley's ISO success rate

 

HP-

I'd like to see something simple that says when Francis is in the game we score "X" points and give up "X" points as a team. Same thing w/ Drew or Mobley or anyone else.

I'm not sure how Rudys formula works but if it is based on penetration and transition game Francis would be a big winner.

I guess what I am looking for is in a slow down offense, which we still have to have cause we can't run every time, who gets the job done at the point (both to himself and the team).

Before anyone gets their butt in an uproar, I always want Francis on the court but I want to see if Drew can run the slow down offensive as well as him, then he could slide to the #2 and move & catch to get better shots and to avoid the double teams. Notice I said slow down offense, when we are breaking Francis can still lead.

 

4chuckie--my man.

yeah...simple is fun. i guess i like charting plays I see. It's simple enough to see, just hard to gather.

didn't mean to imply Rudy's formula is for francis. I meant, I've heard on several occassions Rudy explain how he charts scripted plays for their success rate. he measures success rates based on counting FG, Assist, and FTs all as success for the play.

He doesn't really care about individual stats, he's trying to measure his offensive sets. Last year the set play to Barkley in the low post rated out #1 at 51% success.

Watch what I call the Warp n Woof play for Francis. The 3 man game using double high post screen with weaving picks to free up Francis. I haven't seen it in awhile. I also keep mental notes on Francis's post up sets.

My suggestion for charting transition points is a way to measure both the defensive ability of the Drew squad (getting transition opps) as well as that squad's ability to convert.

but, i'm with you. forget a drew squad. let francis play 40+ if he deserves it. drew's probably going to continue earning his time. but, Francis at #2....i don't know??? I'm thinking more if Drew plays worthy of starting minutes, that's too much a luxury for this team when we need front court players. Rocket's should cash-in on Drew's value if that's the case.

 

How bout you do the same sort of comparison between Walt Williams and a Chair???????

 

SS -

That was freaking hilarious.

[This message has been edited by TheFreak (edited December 14, 1999).]

 

I agree with RocketPimp - the problem I have with the comparisons is that, besides the fact they play the same position, they are totally different players.

I'd like to see more comparisons of numbers between when they play together vs. when they don't. I really think they're more complimentary players, and would like to see more of them on the court together. And it's really unfair to compare stats because they have different games.

To me having Francis and Mobley on the court at the same time is redundant because they are the same player even though they have different positions, they take on the same role -initiate the offense - the comparison between those two would be more interesting.

But back to the point I'm trying to make - I'd love to see Drew in there as SG with Francis at PG. Francis is so good at driving and kicking the ball back out (most of the time), and Drew has such a great shot from the arc, I think the Rox would benefit from that tandem. I would be nice to see him come in at the first substitution (at SG), and then bring Mobley in for Francis, and put Mobley as SG and Drew at PG.

A lot of times Drew is in there with Mobley, who is so good at driving and.....shooting.... that Drew doesn't get as many open shots/opportunities that he would if he were matched up with Francis.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent...back to the comparison. I think it would be interesting to chart their progress in the form of stats over the last 10 games (on a running basis, if it’s not too hard) in addition to the entire season. Since they both seeing the first significant playing in their NBA career, it would be interesting to see how their last 10 games compare to the entire season, as well as to each other.

Also it’s too bad the only defensive stats are blocks and steals – it’s be nice to chart exactly how many points the man they’re defending scored on them…..I think that would be eye-openning. Is there such a stat? Or would it have to be tracked unofficially?