Batman, you are ridiculously out of line. We are discussing this in a civil manner, if you can't, STFU.
I'm heading home soon so this is going to be short and sweet. Edit: I lied I discussed this in my last post. Of course it was ignored. You keep using tradition as a crutch and it is your way of rationalizing a practice that is not appropriate. Just because something was appropriate 50 to 150 years ago doesn't mean that it is appropriate now. Our society has changed. Our demographics have changed. The way in which we handle ourselves needs to change too. There is a right place and a wrong place for witnessing. The public school system is not that place. Everyone should be able to send their children to school without having to worry about someone's religious beliefs being pushed upon them. It is unwelcome because it is not the schools place to teach this to my kids. That is a parents job. It isn't manipulative, it is not the appropriate forum. Because it is their country too. Why didn't they do a lot of things in 1935? Like the civil rights movement. Society evolves. We have now evolved to the point where we know it is not appropriate to push our own religous convictions upon other people when the situation does not call for it. i.e. school and school functions It isn't persecution. I never said that it was. There isn't an adendum to the Freedom of religion amendment saying that you have the freedom to believe everything that you want to believe but you have to put up with listening to our Judeo-Christian rhetoric because that is what we believe and we founded this biatch. Yeah and we are also one of the youngest nations in the world so your 50 to 100 years of tradition don't mean squat compared to the vast majority of the rest of the world. Just because we are the greatest nation on the face of the earth today doesn't mean we will be tomorrow. Just ask Rome. Their traditions didn't help them out after so long now did it. Fine. Whatever. Just answer me this. Its the question I posed you in my first real response. What makes your God and religous convictions more relevant than everyone elses?
It was not ignored, rather challenged. Just because I don't agree with your position does not mean that I ignored it. Did you notice that I admitted that the notion of this nation as a Christian one is sticky? I understand how complex this issue is. I think it is a mistake to throw out the baby with the bath water. Stand for nothing, fall for anything. I'm not promoting tradition for mindless reasons. The traditions are deep and rich. They are not harmful (as I tried to point out in the comments about segregation). Sometimes traditions are useless or harmful (i.e. segregation). You're a parent, right? As your kids age, which parts of your influence and control over them are you going to throw out? What have you already tossed aside? Bedtime? At what age will you disband any say you have about bedtime? It's not a great analogy, but I'm trying to export your principle to another arena where you can calculate the consequences of changing the influence. You missed my point again. According to your standard of religious expression only being valid when private, there would never be witnessing because it requires sharing with another person. I'm not characterizing a public prayer prior to a football game as witnessing. They are not teaching; they are exercising a faith and a practice on which the country was founded. I know you will dispute that assertion, but if a public prayer is good enough for the US Senate... So where is the respect for their country? Why the need to change the country? It is part of our fabric. It hasn't harmed anyone. It may have inspired some. There is no unanimity in this feeling, so you can't say that we have evolved. You can say that you legislted by a judicial process. And there's nothing about elevators in the Constitution either. The Constitution is a broad outline. The founders didn't want a state church. We don't have one. They didn't want the citizens of the US to be compelled to pay taxes to the state church. They aren't. They did, however, want the influence and values of Judeo-Christian traditions to infiltrate the nation. I'm sure some (perhaps TJ and BF) were not as enthusiastic about it, but they must have seen the common value because all we have constitutionally is a very subtle separation of church and state when they could have made it as plain as day. I think, to use your language, we are evolving in the wrong direction. Perhaps our democracy survived so long (and it is long) because of these very traditions you seek to denounce for the purpose of not offending non-believers. You don't know where this road leads. We do know from where we came and now we are throwing out pieces that got us here. It was integral to the founding of our nation. It is a religion of tolerance. The founding fathers were committed to that because that was one of the reasons for fleeing Europe-- to escape religious persecution. Yes, Christianity draws its share of wackos who will pervert the message. This is why Batman lashes out so, but does that make it reason enough to throw the baby out with the bath water? I think to posit a public prayer before a football game as further evidence of religious persecution is just way off target and not what the founders of this nation would have wanted. If it's good enough for the US Senate, why not the rednecks of Roane County in Virginia.
That's well said. I wish Christian Democrats (not saying you are one) would emphasize that as a response. To me, the principle behind group prayer on public grounds is to judge other people and to hold some contest to see who can pray the hardest. Among the honest prayers, there's always some loudmouth who looks at who isn't praying or who is objecting. It's pretty divisive, and it doesn't serve the intended spiritual purpose. I also don't get the strength of TV evangelism either, so maybe there's the connection there. A person's relationship with God can't be magnified with some spiritual bonfire. It seems shallow to enforce it on public grounds where other people don't share similar beliefs.
Religion has NO business being involved in government or in schools. NONE ! PERIOD !! END OF STORY !!! BUH BYE !! DD
NONE ! (No private church schools?) PERIOD !! (Seminaries?) END OF STORY !!! (No sequels?) BUH BYE !! (Come back, Da, come back.)
Public schools or state sponsored are different to what you are describing and germaine to this conversation. Thumbs down ! DD
I know. But I was having coffee on the back porch on this gorgeous morn and I couldn't resist having a little fun with you.
Sounds awesome, and I understood the context. By the way it is already 92+ degrees here in Austin.....ugh. DD
