To throw some water on all the hooraying for the separtion of church and state. I think the effect of the separation has gone way too far. What do you think?
I think the crazy b*stard in your previous post needs therapy, ASAP. Talk about putting one's ego on display. Wow. Keep D&D Civil.
The language "no law respecting an establishment of religion" indicates something very different. And if being a Christian implies being in favor of AIDS, teen pregnancy, religious indoctrination in non-religious settings, homophobia and labelling ecology as paganism, then, no, it has absolutely no business in public schools or at public school functions - in front of the largest possible audience of students and parents - in a modern, Western society. There is nothing holy, sacred or American about cultural or social intolerance, ignorance or regressive thought.
There is no law which mandates any prayer in any place-- except perhaps the halls of Congress. Can somebody check on that? Who said anything about being in favor of AIDS or teen pregnancy? How is saying a prayer before a football game indictrination? What does ecology have to do with Mother Earth? The next time one of these baseball or basketball players thanks God in his/her post game interview in a publicly-funded facility, I hope you will protest. I'm sure the kids listen to the players more than they would the principal. Someone has to protect them. And please don't let them gather at center court for a post-game prayer... in public view no less.
There shouldn't be any laws mandating prayer anywhere in our country for any reason. Period. That is not the governments place or function. The only reason that you are comfortable with a prayer prior to a football game is because it is a prayer to your God. If it was a prayer to Allah or Buddha or any other God, you wouldn't like it too much. How do you think people that do not subscribe to your God feel? They pay taxes just like you do. Their money and kids go to the same schools and football games just as your's do. What makes your God and beliefs so much more relevant than theirs? IT IS NOT OUR PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEMS JOB TO TEACH PRAYER. What kills me is that Christianity teaches that you have access to God at any time and place. You can have your own conversation and worship any time of the day or night. So why is it necessary to have a religious invocation prior to a football game or at any time during school? How about as a parent, you teach your kids about prayer and by example show them how to have frequent conversation with your Maker? Wanna hear what Jesus said about prayer? Those players/whoever have the right to thank and pray to whoever they want. It isn't something that is being sponsored or lead by someone associated(employed) with the school or school system. Refusing them the right to pray to or acknowledge their God would be just as discriminitory as you wanting to force yours upon someone else. It is the ideas like yours that give Christianity a bad name. Being a beacon of light by letting someone see Jesus working in your life is more of a testament than any prayer you can force someone to participate in or any verses you can have hanging in a courthouse or any morality that you can try to beat down someone's throat via the government.
If we gonna remove Church and State please take ALL LAWS concerning marriage off the books Marriage should not even be something the state is involved in Marriage should grant you NO SPECIAL status polygamy should be a non issue etc Rocket River
YOUR religion is not religion. That's what hillbillies like in this story fail to realize. How would of the poeople in the stands reacted to this Hindu prayer? I prostrate myself before the five-faced Lord of Parvati, who is adorned with various ornaments, who shines like the crystal jewel, who is seated peacefully in the lotus pose, with moon-crested crown, with three eyes, wearing trident, thunderbolt, sword and axe on the right side, who holds the serpent, noose, bell, damaru and spear on the left side, and who gives protection from all fear to His devotees. Play ball!
There aren't any such laws now nor have there ever been. The American tradition-- not law, not mandate-- is a Judeo/Christian prayer to God. Not every public act is hypocritical. Praying for safety and sportsmanship would be okay, I think. So if we get someone who is not employed by the school system to voluntarily lead the prayer, you'd be okay with that? My idea? This has been going on for quite a while until the Supreme Court put a kibosh on it. No one has been forced to recite or assent or even listen. The only governmental involvement was in the PREVENTION of said prayer.
Our country is more of a melting pot than ever before and it is no longer a tradition that should be acceptable. No one is saying that anyone can no longer pray. No rights are being trampled on and the lack of a prayer is not offensive to anyone. There are people that don't want to hear it. There are people that do not pray to your God. It does not belong in a public school where many people worship or not worship your God or any God. As a Christian, I do not want it for my own kids. Prayer and worship are sacred and private. As a parent, I want to be the one setting an example of how to pray or not to pray. Not the schools or football games. That is my right and choice as a parent and your wanting of public prayer does not supercede my right. This is a complete copout response. It did not at all respond to what I said. A public prayer is not necessary. You can have a personal prayer for safety and sportsmanship and have the exact same effect. Not at a public school function. Yup, your idea. You want prayer in school and other public functions. Give unto Caesars what is Caesars. The public school system is Caesars. The government also prevented segregation. Sometimes the governments involvement to prevent things is good and right. I'm not saying that segregation and prayer are the same thing, I'm just saying that sometimes the government steps in and prevents something when it is not right for everyone. Why is this so important to you? Why is your right to publically display your God and religion greater than everyone elses right to pray to their God or their right to not have to listen to it? Under your way of thinking, should we then let everyone else that wants to pray to their God get up and pray publically at school events? What about people that don't believe in God? Should they have to sit through that just so you can get a warm and fuzzy? Common sense tells me that we eliminate prayer and let everyone pray or not pray to whatever God they choose on their own time. There is an appropriate time for everything. Public schools and corresponding events are not the appropriate time for that. If you are really hard up for public prayer, go to church, they do it all the time.
I'm struggling how a tradition with many, many years (hundreds?) behind it is suddenly unacceptable. People come to America to become Americans not to change America, don't they? No one is mandated to pray; they are invited. No one is punished who does not pray. To say that a prayer is offensive is a mighty stretch. How do you handle The Great Commission? Do you go to a church that seats other people? Isn't a tax-free existence state-support? I don't really know how to respond to your judgementalism. You seem to want to say that any and every public expression of faith is hypocritical. I think that that is just a crock. Nobody said it was "necessay." It is a tradition that could be honored and respected. When you get right down to it, how much of what we do is really necessary, so that doesn't really fly as a standard. Okay. Straight ticket. That must make me about 150 years old then. Whatever happened to tolerance? I'm not sure how important it is to me. I just don't like some of the absolute defamation and argumentation I read about it. There is a latent hostility underneath a lot of it. Change just for change's sake is not necessarily good. We throw out long-standing religioius tradition because it offends some who would rather no participate. I think that may be too radical a response. This is an argument made on paper. In real life, it should bother nobody. This is a nation founded on Judeo-Christian traditioins. I think it behooves us to hold on to most of those traditions. Segregation had a real harmful effect on people. Public prayer is a nuisance-- only if you want it to be.
America is not a Christian nation. We are a nation of the people and our people believe many different religions. NOT JUST CHRISTIANITY. What if the majority of the US population shifted from Christianity to Buddhism? Would you be comfortable with then changing our prayers in school from a prayer to your God to a meditation time or prayer to Buddha or whatever it is that they believe? What if someone wanted to have a prayer to Allah? Should you deny them that same right? You get to pray to God before the game, why can't muslims? Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth, why shouldn't they get equal opportunity? If you want to witness to others, do it on your personal time. A school function is not the time or place. Church is not a place where all children are REQUIRED BY LAW to attend. School is. Nope, I never said that. I am only saying that in a public school and it's functions it is not welcome (by me and obviously many others) or necessary. If it is not necessary, why do you care. We finally agree on something. You should definitely be more tolerant of other people and their beliefs. Everything boils down to religious traditions have no place in school no matter how old the tradition is. No, our nation was founded by men that believed everyone had the right to believe whatever they want without persecution. Just because some of them went home at night and prayed to a Judeo-Christian God does not make our country Christian. Benji Franklin was an Atheist. Most of the crap that is "Christian" in our government today was instituted about 100 years after the birth of our nation. "In God We Trust" first appeared on the two cent coin in 1873. The pledge of allegiance was written by a Baptist minister in 1892 and the words "Under God" were added in 1954. So it isnt like all of these "traditions" have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years nor were they all thought up by George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. I specifically said that they were not the same thing. I was only merely giving you an example of how the government can prevent something from happening and it end up being positive.
Well of course. Why can't the prayer go on as it has for years and years? America didn't arise out of a void. It was born with and of Judeo-Christian traditions and framework which allows for other religious freedom without fear of reprisal. It seems like something which should be appreciated not discouraged.
Not enough has been said here about what a backwards, hateful bigot that "Christian" in giddyup's first post is. Wow. What a backwards, hateful bigot. Thanks for spreading the hate, giddy! Very "Christian" of you.
Christianity can stand with other religions. It always has. Jesus' message was to love all people and to be tolerant. How is that hard on anyone who stands outside of Christianity? I think the issue of whether or not the US is a Christian nation is a sticky one. Yes, there is no formal church of the US-- like the Anglican Church or Roman Catholicism, but that doesn't mean that Christian tradition was not central to the founders and first citizens of the nation. Islam is not our tradition, plain and simple. You missed my point. You were saying that any expression or form of religion that was not personal was hypocritical. The Great Commission requires Christians to reach out to non-Christians. How do you handle that and remain inward and un-hypocritical? In the final analysis, little is necessary so that is no criteria. Why would someone who is a Christian find prayer unwelcome? Appropriateness and tradition is one thing. If it isn't done, I don't know if I would really miss it. What sticks in my craw is all this outlandish caterwauling which makes a simple plea to God into something manipulative. And why shoudn't they be tolerant of the traditions in place? Why didn' they think of this in 1935? The world would have been a better place a long time ago. Agreed but where so you find persecution in a small prayer before a football game? Let's not exaggerate. So these things were added and the US became the greatest nation on the face of the Earth. We are talking about 60, 115, and 130-odd years of tradition on just the things you named. Now all of a sudden those things and others like them were a mistake and are hindering our nation. That needs more explaining. I know you did and I just further pointed out how very different and far apart they are, so much so that I don't think it is even a good analogy.
Yeah, I'm really tired of hearing about racism too. Isn't that a tired topic? Hunger too. And poverty. How boring! Here's the deal: Every time you post hateful, bigoted crap I'm going to call you on it. That speech was disgusting. But, then again, what should we expect from Ann Coulter's biggest BBS cheerleader?
