Sam is correct. The Uighars are technically Chinese Muslims since they are Muslims living in PRC territory and they have been treated pretty badly by the PRC. You hear a lot of complaints about how the PRC has treated Christians but the PRC hasn't treated Muslims any better. Possibly worse.
and i haven't read a word of it, guess i'm an ignorant punk who ought to know better than to mess with islam. you may not be giving them a pass but you are empathizing to an extent. i think your own strongly held beliefs are coloring your judgement on this issue. yes, the middle east is a different culture than the west but they are totally an unequivocally wrong to believe for one second that violence is a just reaction to cartoons that they find offensive. and when i say they i mean the ones who are condoning or committing these stupid acts. tiger says that many have spoken out against but in my opinion it hasn't been nearly enough.
Don't forget the rest of the Chinese national muslim posse: Hui (the ones that most westerners will see), Kirghiz, Kazakh, Tajik, some Uzbek, and I think a few Tatars as well. But these guys aren't as nationalistic as the Uighurs and are much smaller anyway so they don't get the heavyhanded treatment. Great page on Chinese ethnic minorities here - just reading it makes me want to head back to Yunnan ASAP! http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Minorities/China-Nationalities.html
I actually do understand why..my main point was stated better with one line in tiger's post.....they dont need to be imposing their beliefs on everyone else. Evenmoreso when violence seems to be the way they want to go about enforcing their moral code.. another quote I truely believe....(paraphrased)....I may not like what you have to say, but Ill defend to the death your right to say it. If the followers of Islam cant hang with that philosophy in the countries that subscribe to free speech, than maybe living in countries ruled by Islamic Law is where they need to remain.
i wasn't even gonna go quite that far but you are damn right. i mean, this happened in denmark, home of danish people. they let muslims live there, worship in mosques etc. they need to abide by the fact that danish people make cartoons that might be offensive. hey, danish people might be racist and hate muslims, that would be their right. islamic leaders need to step to the plate if they want to chill with the rest of us. we don't freak out and burn and kill when someone makes fun of us, period.
Excellent point. This is the way I see it. Let me live my life the way I want to live. If I believe that depicting the Prophet Muhammad is a sin, then let that be. You don't have to believe it. Don't lump me in a group with terrorists. Don't say that everyone in my religion is a savage. Don't say that I follow the faith of the uneducated third world. If I want to pray 5 times a day and fast during Ramadan, then let that be. As long as I do not bother you, do not make it a point to criticize my beliefs and my faith as a whole every opportunity you get. Let's be realistic here. Every religion has a dark past. And I mean EVERY religion. If you think your faith's history is flawless, let's discuss it. Introduce me to the faith with the flawless history. I will condemn the flaws of the believers of my faith if you do the same. Do not confuse the faith with those who misinterpret it. I don't think every Christian is a Moonie. Similarly, do not lump me with terrorists. That being said, for people who behead the innocent and oppress, I will support you 110% in saying that they are the absolute scum of the Earth. In my book, a Muslim doing such is the lowest of the low because it represents people like me negatively (and to a large extent, rightfully so). If you want to bomb people that behead women, let me know how I can help you. But do not say I am one of them. I am a part of a Muslim community. A community of honest, hard-working people who are good friends, citizens, and neighbors. These are people that exemplify what a Muslim should be. That's what I am and that's what I think most Muslims on this board are. Please just respect what we believe. You don't have to like it; just respect it.
The funny thing is that wherever most of these riots/demonstrations are occurring, freedom of speech and expression is not allowed. These are organized by the governments, and the people who have been supressed so long about everything, just bust out. Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia..etc...etc..etc... The only way these things happen is with government support. Kind of weakens their stance in my eyes. DD
Completely agree, one must abide by the laws and customs of the part of the world in which he/she chooses to live; this is in fact recognized in Islamic theology and is called "Fiqh Al-Mahjar" (meaning Islamic jurisprudence for Muslims living in non-Muslim societies). As long as my right to practice my religion freely is respected and protected, then I absolutely must abide by the laws and customs of the society in which I live, and not only that, but I must also attempt to positively contribute to the society in which I live. To give you a recent example...when the ban on "overt religious symbols" took effect in France, many Muslims perceived that to be a violation of their religious freedom (and rightly so, if I might add, but that's besides the point). Instead, the Grand Imam of the most prestigious Muslim institution in the world -- Al-Azhar -- came out and urged Muslim living in France to comply with it, saying that they as Muslims are "compelled" to follow French law, and it wouldn't be a sin to do so. Also, let me just clarify that these acts of violence were mostly in the Middle East and even then mostly in Syria, Lebanon, and Afghanistan, not the West non-Muslim world. Just wanted to clarify that...
The cartoons are pretty gross in my opinion. If it were Jewish groups - well let's just say no newspaper would publish such cartoons because they know the reaction would be so harsh as to probably lead to it shutting down. This isn't about free speach so much as it's about how far can someone go in pooping on another society. Some of those dipictions do cross the line in my opinion - not all of them though. Of course, the Muslim reaction in terms of violence is just pathetic and sadly shows the truth of one of the cartoons. The one with the prophet Muhammed with a bomb on his head. Just goes to show that there are still many Muslims who validate that caricature by taking to the bomb as a reaction. Honestly, if the reaction is to burn embassies and attack foreign businesses - well, that's stupid on those Muslims who do that. They are only hurting their own economy and future. Personally, I hope the world gets on this alternative fuel wave and wean ourselves off of oil - then we can truly disengage the Arab world and let it be on it's own.
What? You must have misunderstood me, NewYorker, I DO support their right to publish these cartoons, but let's not beat around the bushes here...it's hate speech, not much different from Neo-Nazi marches being a hateful expression. But no, you're wrong, I support their right to publish it, but doesn't mean I think it's the right thing to do or that it wasn't offensive, provocative, and inciteful. I am actually a 'free speech' freak, but even in our society there are real limits -- as you're well aware -- on freedom of expression when an overriding concern comes into play...in Britain they do now in fact punish 'hate speech' and restrict it...in most of western Europe, there are laws specifically designed to confront anti-Semitism...and on and on.
Are you saying that Hollywood should not portray terrorists as Arabs? Are you saying that they should be more politically correct and have the terrorists be Zen Buddhists?
I think that's an excellent point and one of the reasons why the protests are so violent. When a society has a tradition of freedom of speech and assembly there are outlets for expressing dissatisifaction regarding the government or anything else. OTOH though without a tradition of freedom of speech when people finally do speak out it comes out as a torrent since there's been so much frustration. Its like if you're at a meeting and you feel you have something important to say but someone keeps talking everytime you try to say something. Sooner or later you'll get worked up and when you finally do speak you'll be speaking louder and angrier than you might've before. Another aspect that I heard about this situation recently is that while its primarily targetted at the Danes many protestors are latching on to this to protest a variety of slights that they feel towards what they see as anti-Islamic sentiment in the West and even grievances directed at their own governments. The cartoons themselves are just the match that has set off a powderkeg of resentment.
No actually they're free to do so, I was just drawing comparisons between our version of "reality" of the Arab terrorist and the Arab "reality" which views the state of Israel as a violent vampire implanted in the heart of the Arab world by the colonial powers. If you're going to condemn one you must condemn the other, or otherwise both sides are free to publish what they think of the other. Arabs certainly don't view Israel or the world in the same way many Westerners do, much like the public at large in America views Arabs in a certain light (at large, that is, since a lot of people even here in the West, especially in academia and on the left, have been rather critical of Israeli policies over the years); both sides are heavily prejudiced in that regard. So that was my point...
understood Unfortunately, Im afraid it *might* lead to attacks in other countries of the EU where papers have published the offending material. A good point made about this just being the match that ignites the underlying resentment. When you have large numbers of folks over there who have been indoctrinated into the mindset of hatred against the US and her allies, eventually that hatred will bubble over into violence. The worst aspect of this is how that hatred only makes it easier for the radicals to recruit new members to help perpetuate the madness. A clarification is in order tho...I do want to point out that my posts are made with the knowledge that the radicals are the exception in Islam and not the rule. I fully respect the rights of peace-loving Muslims to worship in whatever way pleases them and their god...just recognize that in this society, at one point someone can and *will* say somethign that offends your (or any religion's practitioners) sensibilities....it shoudl never be a excuse for violence.
Full agree with everything you said...I think the point you and Sishir made regarding the bottled-up resentment and anger being unleashed when these cartoons came to light is probably spot on. Tensions are certainly at an all time high with three seperate conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Palestine-Israel preoccupying many people in that region. Add to that the possibility of conflict with Syria and Iran -- not to mention the recent CIA drone bombing in Pakistan -- and it paints a clearer picture of why some people in that region of the world might use something like this as an excuse to perpetrate violence against any Western target. BTW, R2K, nice to see you venturing in here once in a while, don't be a stranger.
