There has long been an unofficial tier system in the NBA with regards to how the refs treat their players. There was Jordan at the top, a few levels below that there were Bird, Magic, Barkley, Malone and now Kobe and Shaq. Then there is the level of calls that other stars get, like Iverson, Pierce, McGrady, etc. There is a lot to show that the classier, quieter players actually pay the price for not constantly complaining like the players in the top two tiers consistently did. Olajuwon never got the treatment from refs that jordan, Magic, or even Malone got, and neither did Ewing or Robinson. What's the connection? Being quiet. The squeaky wheel, etc. In the long run, it seems to be true. But there is a whole other thing going on right now with Vince Carter, and it's really starting to piss me off. He is just repeatedly getting screwed. It's not that he doesn't get 'star treatment' commesurate to his status, it's that he doesn't even get calls that a journeyman would get. I'm not sure how many people outside of Toronto are aware of this, but it's become a real joke, at Carter's expense. This is not just partisanship either. I have been a Rockets fan much longer than a Raptors fan, and used to get frustrated with the lack of respect Hakeem would get, but it was nothing compared with this. If anyone saw the play to end the latest L.A./Raptors game, that was typical. It's not even close, he's getting mugged, and refs are jus letting it happen. The evolution of Carter's ongoing antagonism with the refs. Initially, he got pretty good treatment, although never at a 'star' level, it was better than the average player. Then in conjunction with the decline in Carter's health and stature stateside, the calls got worse and worse. And it wasn't all automatic rush to defend Carter in Toronto, as many were annoyed with his tendancy to get whiney when he didn't get the call, to look pained and injured when called for a questionable foul, etc. I was among those who were tired of this. But in his defense, it was no worse than many, Jordan included, it just got a lot of pub because the worm had really turned with Carter and the press since his decision to stay with the Raptors. But these days even the Carter critics in Toronto can't really believe the state of things. No longer are people chalking it upto merely Carter not consistently driving enough to establish a rep with the refs, as that might explain his lak of star calls, but wouldn't explain the fact that the refs often seem to lose their whistels when Carter is driving and being mugged, or only find it to call a charge. Carter is sort of in a no win situation, and I can honestly say that this is not of his making, not anymore. If he says outside, people say he's too soft, but if he drives the refs let him get mugged quite often, and don;t give him even the pedestrian player's call. It has gotten so bad that the local press often asks Toronto management if they have sent tapes to the head office, and other press members are actually suggesting that the uually quiet Carter needs to start taking techincals to alert the refs, and more importantly the head office, that he's not gonna just take it sitting down. The Toronto coach is among those, so far, who refuses to discuss ref calls, but Carter is at the point where he merely calls it 'unbelievable', and leaves it there. I am wondering if people outside of Toronto are aware of this, or have seen it in action. It's not on every play, by any means, but watch a Raps game or two, and you'll see it. I donlt expect Carter to get 'star treatment', although if anyone should, the guy who has basially been the number one vote getter every year he's been here probably has a case, but I would be satisfied with him just getting the calls that anyone else would get.
I agree McBeth, I think Carter got a bum rap of playing soft and not caring and the topper was him wanting to go to his graduation. Its like the current Francis situation, and what scares me the most or the Howard Dean situation, you do something to prove a negative people believe about you, even though your overall record shows whatever you did was an exception to your overall behavior. The worst thing Carter could have done, was in some way show that basketball wasn't the only thing he cared about. And what's so ridiculous about it is, any other player would have been praised for going back to school.
it's racial man.... how many refs are canadian??? terrence and philip might have started it, but Vince is now getting it!!!!!!
You're damn right, and even Ray Charles can see it. It's f-ing criminal. Carter needs to beat the crap out of somebody. Earn an ejection. OR seven. It reminds me of Drexler, as much as Olajuwon. Especially Portland Drexler, really sweet cutting to the hoop but just hated by the man; esp. if that man's name was Jake. I hate the refs star chart. I can't stand it.
That's what amazes me, how obvious it is. It isn;t just on traffic could go any way kind of stuff...it's end of game/half down by 1, everyone clears out and Carter drives and gets mugged, no call kind of crap. Worst I've ever seen. There's a lot I don't like about Carter as a player...I think there are things about him which make him a healthier human being than say a Jordan, especially the fact that he has more to his life than sports, but less of a player... but I also feel for him. He's probably got more pure talent than anyone I've ever seen, and while early on that talent gained him fame, it has more and more been used as a reason to bash him, often unfairly, and in ways like this, it directly affects his ability to live up to that talent.
I don't understand why certain players get certain calls? It just baffles the mind? What's the point of even having a rule book then?
I think, like we saw happening in baseball, the refs get a little too caught up in their effect on the game, and of their criteria for players 'earning' their respect. Add to that the fact that they are human, read papers, etc., and are subject to biased groupthink as much as anyone else, and a player from a media friendly city like Kobe will automatically 'earn' more respect than a player like Vince who has largely been disparaged in the press the last few years.
I also think its annoying. It happens in football and baseball too, with the only consistant factor being it benifits really geat players. Barry Bonds has the smallest srike zone I have ever seen and Deon was all over recievers back when he was playing. I think MacBeth is right in that its always the media darlings that get all the calls. The only odd thing is thay Carter should likely be one of those players. The overall hype around him is a great as almost anyone in the legue outside of Shaq and Kobe.
I think it's like this, ref's have to make split second judgement calss, those are hard. Now if you have a reputation of taking it hard to the hole and finishing most of the time, if there contact or seems to be contact and you missed, the ref will assume that the contact caused you to missed a shot and in turn give you a call. People talk about all the Shaq's no calls with elbows, but they fail to realize that people have their arms all over Shaq on most of the plays, (watched the slow mo replays, Shaq always has a arm on his arm), the ref don't call it most of the time because they know he's strong enough to finish the play but they also don't call him using his elbow to balance out. At to the fact that no one's really set when guarding or is usually inside of the circle, it's kind of hard to call a foul on Shaq. The same is for Hakeem, people complaint he dream shake is a travel, but if you watch the replays, you can see that most of the time it's not. Sot he refs will let the one or two times that he did argubly travel slide just to not make the wrong call and take away his move.
Oajuwon's fadeaway is about as close to travel as one can get. But that was his pet move. So the refs let it go. Ewing walked on every play, but he was allowed to run in from half court and score. So while these players did not get the foul calls, they did get other calls, and sometimes you have too look at that too. Another thing to think about is whether you get the foul call. Yao fouls a lot, but often they give it to Jimmy Jacks. Even tho we all know Yao was the one who fouled.
Stop the press, I find myself in agreement with Macbeth! The last Raptors game I watched, he got none of the BOTD (benefit of the doubt) calls that can go either way and even got repeatedly tackled going to the bucket. No whistle at all. And he is considered one of the league's top talents. I just think an examination of the officiating is in order.
I agree with PSJ. Also, Olajuwon got a lot of no-calls when he was blocking shots. If it was close to goal tending or a defensive foul, Olajuwon would often be credited with a block.
I haven't watched many Raptors games and this sounds strange. All I can say is that I have met Vince Carter several times (along with most of the eastern conference and the t-wolves and grizzlies of the western conference) and he is the most arrogant and unfriendly player I've encountered. Far and away no less. Perhaps it's karma or perhaps the ref's are aware of this and don't care for him on a personal level. Kilgore Trout- on a completely unrelated note, I'm a huge Vonnegut fan too.
Wow. You hear such a wide disparity of things about Carter...I have no experience myself, but I've heard the exact opposite from some, but also opinions akin to this. Weird. Either way, the refs aren;t there to excericse their personel opinions, and Jordan, Bird an others were incredible jerks...but it didn't cost them.
but Jordan and Bird types may have been jerks but were nice to the refs chatting with them and it seemed building a relationship with them. These days players dont do that as much even though some try.. I really feel bad for VC I think he is an unbelievable talent but I think his people skills are severly lacking and that is costing him alot in terms calls. Ive had quite a few friends who have met VC sitting behind the opposing teams bench (company perks) and they say hes a jerk and hes rude. Maybe hes rude to the refs too.. J
My cousin used to be employed with a sports radio station in Toronto. She would routinely work with and interview athletes from the NBA, NHL, MLB and various College teams. Anyway, she said that Vince Carter was probably the biggest jerk she had ever had to deal with. Apparantly, he's really, really arrogant and full of himself. Not down to earth at all. This sort of confirms room4rentsf's story.
Whenever I see Carter, all he does is lameass fadeaways. If you want to draw fouls, you have to drive like a madman and risk getting knocked out, a la Allen Iverson. You have to play 100% all out all the time.
That was the old argument...but it has become evident that that is not the case, as he drives all the time now, with the same result. His 3-pt attempts are way down, his drives are way up, and it has become apparent that the egg ( zero calls) came before Carter turned chicken ( not driving)...
