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bowling for columbine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Ghettostar85, Sep 20, 2003.

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  1. mrpaige

    mrpaige Member

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    How far does he push it back to be respectful? A month? Two months? Six months?

    How long is a city off limits to the NRA after a shooting death of a child in order to be respectful (even a shooting death that Heston may not have even been aware of in advance)?

    Plus, I say editing other speeches together to make the speeches given in Denver and Flint to seem more defiant, to make completely different thoughts into a single sentence, thereby changing the meaning completely, etc. is slanderous.
     
  2. DCkid

    DCkid Member

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    From "Truth About Columbine" article

    <i>
    Bowling continues by juxtaposing another Heston speech with a school shooting of Kayla Rolland at Mt. Morris, MI, just north of Flint. Moore makes the claim that "Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally."

    Fact: Heston's speech was given at a <b>"get out the vote" rally</b> in Flint, which was held when elections rolled by some <b>eight months</b> after the shooting ( Feb. 29 vs Oct. 17, 2000).

    Fact: Bush and Gore were then both in the Flint area, trying to gather votes. Moore himself had been hosting rallies for Green Party candidate Nader in Flint a few weeks before.

    Moore creates the impression that one event was right after the other so smoothly that I didn't spot his technique. It was picked up by Richard Rockley, who sent me an email.

    Moore works by depriving you of context and guiding your mind to fill the vacuum -- with completely false ideas. It is brilliantly, if unethically, done,. Let's deconstruct his method.
    </i>

    You should really read the remainder of the article concerning the "Flint rally." After reading it, I think you'll agree that Moore <i>clearly</i> went to great lengths in his attempt to demonize Heston.
     
  3. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Member

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    http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/


    excerpt:

     
  4. mrpaige

    mrpaige Member

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    Gee. I did read the transcript of the speech, and yes many of the words that end up in the film are in the speech. However, they are edited together into the sentences you see to create something entirely different than what was said in context.

    Just using all the same words is not the same as quoting someone.

    I mean, I could quote Moore here as "I chose to make Heston look worse and make Heston look as evil as he actually was." That sort of changes the context, though. But I guess I can say it's true because he did use those words, just not in that order, and I left some other words out.

    And the "cold dead hands" was not in the Denver speech. The fact that a Denver TV station used it to illustrate some story doesn't automatically make it part of the Denver speech (nor the Flint speech, which Moore doesn't even reference here).

    Even spy satellites are not weapons of mass destruction. Those would still fall under the heading of telecommunications satellites. Even the critical websites note that spy satellites are a big part of the payload put up by rockets built at this facility.

    But hey, I'll let you have that.

    Makes me wonder why we didn't have a huge rash of school shootings in Amarillo while I was growing up. I mean, we very publically built nuclear warheads just outside of town (the facility is used to take them apart now). It's something of a point of pride in the city.

    The kind of interesting thing, to me, is that the Rocky Flats site, which is also just outside Denver (and, I believe, in the same county as Littleton), was something of a sister site to the Amarillo-based Pantex facility. The point about weapons of mass destruction could've been made there.

    So, once again, we're treated to a claim that seems to be of a current nature in the film (the impression is given that the Littleton facility currently builds weapons of mass destruction) when the same point could've been made probably better, in the past tense since Rocky Flats was closed a few years ago, more gravely against the nearby Rocky Flats site. Nobody could've argued that Rocky Flats made weapons of mass destruction.

    Great quote. Facts are, by definition, true. Many of the claims he makes within the movie are, however, false, or at the very least deliberately deceptive. Many of those things, he choses not to address here.
     
  5. mrpaige

    mrpaige Member

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    By the way, here's the transcipt of the Denver speech. The last paragraph was almost prophetic:

    Thank you. Thank you very much. Good morning. I am very happy to welcome you to this abbreviated annual gathering of the National Rifle Association. Thank you all for coming and thank you for supporting your organization.

    I also want to applaud your courage in coming here today.
    Of course, you have a right to be here. As you know, we've cancelled the festivities, the fellowship we normally enjoy at our annual gatherings. This decision has perplexed a few and inconvenienced thousands. As your president, I apologize for that.

    But it's fitting and proper that we should do this. Because NRA members are, above all, Americans. That means that whatever our differences, we are respectful of one another and we stand united, especially in adversity.

    I have a message from the mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver. He sent me this and said don't come here, we don't want you here. I said to the mayor, well, my reply to the mayor is, I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old. Since then, I've run small errands for my country, from Nigeria to Vietnam. I know many of you here in this room could say the same thing. But the mayor said don't come.

    I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry for the newspaper ads saying the same thing, don't come here. This is our country. As Americans, we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land.

    They say we'll create a media distraction, but we were preceded here by hundreds of intrusive news crews. They say we'll create political distraction, but it's not been the NRA pressing for political advantage, calling press conferences to propose vast packages of new legislation.

    Still they say don't come here. I guess what saddens me the most is how that suggests complicity. It implies that you and I and 80 million honest gun owners are somehow to blame, that we don't care. We don't care as much as they do, or that we don't deserve to be as shocked and horrified as every other soul in America mourning for the people of Littleton.

    Don't come here. That's offensive. It's also absurd because we live here. There are thousands of NRA members in Denver, and tens upon tens of thousands in the state of Colorado.

    NRA members labor in Denver's factories, they populate Denver's faculties, run Denver corporations, play on Colorado sports teams, work in media across the Front Range, parent and teach and coach Denver's children, attend Denver's churches and proudly represent Denver in uniform on the world's oceans and in the skies over Kosovo at this very moment.

    NRA members are in city hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surely among the police and fire and SWAT team heroes who risked their lives to rescue the students at Columbine.

    Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America. The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross section of American life imaginable.

    So, we have the same right as all other citizens to be here. To help shoulder the grief and share our sorrow and to offer our respectful, reassured voice to the national discourse that has erupted around this tragedy.

    One more thing. Our words and our behavior will be scrutinized more than ever this morning. Those who are hostile towards us will lie in wait to seize on a soundbite out of context, ever searching for an embarrassing moment to ridicule us. So, let us be mindful. The eyes of the nation are upon us today.
     

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