Biggio Question

because he didn't play in New York or Boston. If he had, there would be no question. It wasn't just 3,060 hits. It was also the 668 doubles (5th all-time), HBP (1st in modern era), a multiple position all-star, one of the top 2B of all time, etc., etc., etc.

There is no question that he is an HOF and a 1st ballot one at that.

 

b/c he's a walking cliche.

 

I don't agree with it in the slightest. But the argument is a modern era one. All the advantages of this and that... blah blah blah...

The only valid point in the Anti-Biggio HOF talk is the fact that in the last 8 years he has hit over .270 only twice. He has hit over .300 only 4 times in his 18 year career, one of which was the year of the strike. And he has only had one 200+ hit season in his career. And lets not forget 0 WS championships.

While it's a valid point, it really becomes a mute point once you start weighing in on all his other numbers. But the nitch is... It's not the Hall of guys who play for a long time. And it's all pretty much coming from one guy... Skip Shameless.

I really wouldn't worry about it though. Barring some kind of scandal of gigantic proportions, he's going to get in. If nothing else, because it would be good for baseball. He's done and said the right things both on and off the field. And obviously, if you were watching, he is well respected by his piers. Coaches, players, and the reporters who have watched him over the years.

 

I can't think of one potential HOFer this hurt. Many of the game's best never won a championship.

 

I don't think people really question it anymore. They ask it to have a conversation as reporters, but they always seem to just say "yeah he's in". Bagwell is another story.. but for Bidge, I don't recall many (if any) giving much resistance to HoF talk nowadays.

 

I agree. That's what I hear too. The guys on Baseball Tonight, when asked, were like, "are you serious? of course he's in."

 

Just want to throw in here that the HBP record has no bearing on his HOF credentials.

 

No kidding. Some of the other points have merit (but not enough to keep him out even on the first ballot), but that particular point is just stupid.

 

...what I saw from the corner of my eye when I last opened this thread.

 

Joe Morgan hit over .300 only twice in his career and over .270 only twice over the last 8 years of his career. He also never had more than 167 hits in any season. Biggio even has a career batting average .10 higher than Morgan.

 

agreed. the guy was a middle infielder. with his offensive numbers at 2B, he's getting in. honestly, it's really not a very interesting discussion, even.

 

Wow. Good find. Morgan is one of the few 2B I consider (with my underqualified opinion based on an admittedly limited education on the matter) in the super-upper-echelon above Bidge all-time. Collins, Hornsby, Robinson, and Lajoie are the others.

I'd love to hear the commentary of others on the matter. My conclusions are almost arbitrary, based only on some reading of old articles and looking at numbers. That, and I never played 2B not even in a softball league.

 

I'm just ready to move on from Craig now. No doubt he is a hall of famer.

I will say Houston sent Craig on his way to retirement in a magnificent way. Houston has spoiled the hell out of Craig. I'm actually worn out by all of it. The buzz of not having Craig around to adorn next season will definitely be felt...both in the atmosphere and in the empty seats.

 

Why do you let it bother you? The ESPN Hosts who have zero knowledge about baseball are the ones who question it. But ESPN guys who have HOF votes like Buster Olney and Tim Kurkjian say that Bigg is a HOFer.

 

I think attendance will be down, no doubt. But I'm guessing they still draw around 2.50-2.75 million next season.

 

Batting average should rarely, if ever, be the #1 factor in any discussion of value. Morgan only hit .270 for his career, but had an OBP of nearly .400, which is fantastic, especially considering the era. Biggio's game, likewise, was never about batting avergage - it was about his unique combination of speed, defense, extra-base power, and ability to get on base.

In raw terms, Biggio had more pop than Morgan (.433 SLG vs. .427), but when you factor in the era that each played in, Morgan's value is truly magnified. The average NL SLG for the duration of Morgan's career was 0.384, which is 20+ points lower than the average NL SLG during Biggio's career.

Biggio's longevity hurt his value more than it helped it IMO. He was never more than an average player after the year 1999, and it really took a toll on his career numbers. Luckily for Biggio and Astros fans, HOF voters will probably feel differently. 3,000 hits virtually assures Biggio of being voted in.

Bottom line, I think Biggio is a HOF, and so will the voters, for probably different reasons. If you take Biggio's pre-2000 career, he's up there with the greatest 2B of all-time, but if you factor in his entire career, he's a fringe HOF, but still a HOFer nonetheless.

 

I was sad there was no mention of BGO on the headlines of espn.com

 

These are good points.

His career OBP and BA went down, but I'm not sure it hurt his SLG all that much as his homers and doubles were sitll pretty nice. Also, 2001 may not have been 1998 but was still pretty nice.

How does a decline late in his career, after a major knee injury no less, undo the first part of his career, in which "he's up there with the greatest 2B of all time"? Either he played to that level for 8 years or he didn't. If he did, a decline doesn't take that away (IMO) any more than anyone else's decline did who is now in the Hall of Fame. Besides, the only numbers that could really have been hurt are BA (which you're done a good job discounting) and OBP (and by extension OPS).

 

I think Bagwell is more of a lock for the HOF than Biggio...the only knock I see on Bagwell is postseason performance. An OPS under .700 in 9 postseason series is a big knock, but his career outside of that is marvelous. The best NL first baseman in the last 20 years. (probably 40).