Biggio's career numbers are getting to a pretty sick level. He's a shoo-in for the Hall of Fame, and just three years ago the talking heads weren't even mentioning him as a possibility. The only thing now is whether he'll get in "first ballot" (and if he retired at the end of '06, I'm guessing no). I've heard it said that in no way is Biggio Joe Morgan's equal. I can accept that, b/c by the time I started paying attention Joe was at the end of his career hanging on with Philly and Oakland. But, by the time Biggio retires he will have: --more HR than Joe Morgan --more hits than Joe Morgan --more runs scored than Joe Morgan --more doubles --more RBI's (or dead-even as he began '06 only 70 behind) --higher BA --very similar slugging --more total bases --more hit-by-pitch --fewer stolen bases --fewer triples --fewer walks and more strikeouts --lower OBP --fewer intentional passes --more GIDP Now, I'm a huge proponent of understanding that statistics can present an inaccurate picture on their own merit (lies, damned lies, and statistics). So, I'm not making an argument that Biggio is "better" than Morgan. Instead, in noticing how similar the numbers are and how Bidge has eclipsed Morgan in come pretty key offensive categories (with the notable exception of OBP and swipes), I'm wanting to hear from guys that had the opportunity to watch Morgan play. I also want to hear about defense. We look at Bidge today and think he's not all that great, but we forget that he was *awesome* in the '90s. Awesome. Those weren't "reputation" gold gloves. Anyway, I look forward to thoughts from some of you "grizzled veterans".
I'm not a grizzeled veteran obviously, the only thing I will say is that biggio and morgan played in different eras as far as comparing their offensive numbers.
I wonder what Bill James would say about this? Remember that he was the one who said that Biggio was the second greatest player of his era, behind only Barry Bonds.
and then there's the whole matter of playing for a winner. Morgan was a respected leader on a team for of superstars (Bench, Rose, Perez, Concepcion, Griffey....)
Those raw numbers are deceiving, though. Morgan played in a much more offensively-depressed era than Biggio did, even when accounting for Biggio's time in the Astrodome. For reference, the park-adjusted league OBP during Morgan's era was 0.326, while during Biggio's era it was 0.337. Even more pronounced is the difference in SLG - Morgan's era park-adjusted league SLG was 0.384 versus Biggio's era of 0.415. So while Biggio has a higher raw career SLG, relatively speaking, Morgan's was better. Morgan had a higher relative OBP, a higher relative SLG, and stole almost 300 more bases than Biggio at a better success rate. Overall, Morgan was just a much-better player than Biggio. Since many people consider Morgan to be the best all-around 2B of all-time, that's certainly nothing to be ashamed of.
Some of that is helpful. IIRC Morgan had one or two MVP's and some postseason prowess as well. But was he better than Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, and Nap Lajoie??
Morgan may have been the best I ever saw at 2nd. A true winner. A lousy early 'stro tradee. But who has eclipsed Bigg over the last 15 years? Who, since Pete Rose, has provided a position of need for his team more than Bigg? (C, OF, 2B)
If Sandberg made it in the HOF then so will Biggio. As for comparing Morgan and Biggio. They are different type of players that happen to play the same position. If offensive prowess is what you are looking for then Biggio would be the likely choice. If all-around table-setter type of player is what you want then Morgan would be the choice. Morgan had the benefit of playing for one of the greatest teams of all time while Biggio was merely the best player on his team most years. Did having all that talent around Morgan help his game...maybe Does the fact that Biggio had to be "the man" all those years with little or no help, make his accomplishments larger..maybe. I would not want to live on the difference between them.
Prolly have to ask Bobrek, pretty sure he saw 'em play. But seriously, it's just about impossible to compare those guys to modern players. Morgan's the best post-WWII 2B, and Biggio's not too terribly far behind.
Well, that's beside the point. I *did* get to see Ryno play, and IMO Biggio eclipsed him long ago. Head and shoulders above Sandberg. Plus, Sandberg's writing sucks. Not to ignore your points about the different types of players Morgan and Biggio were, but your statements here seriously discount the other Hall of Famer that played for the Astros in the '90s. Bags had everything Biggio had *and* a great arm. It seems too many people only remember the Bagwell with his shoulder dangling by a sinew and forget the Bagwell that terrorized the National League for 10 years. Utterly dominant. One of the best 1B all time.
I agree and I meant no disrespect to Bags either. I do remember him and I think he was a great player as well. But even with Bags' help, the Astros lineup falls seriously short of the lineup the big red machine put on the field day after day. As for Bags being a HOFer..maybe. 1st ballot, no way but I think he will make it in eventually. I think the stigma of steriods will haunt most power hitters of this era. I know there is no proof of Bags ever taking them but he is guilty by association. I personally would not hold that against him. The fact that Bags did not reach 500 HRs will hurt his chances as well but IMO if he had played his 1st 9 years somewhere else besides the Dome, he would have had close to 550 or more by now.
Agreed. Even in '98, the Astros are no comparison to that amazing club. Too bad I only get to read about it.
