Would you agree then that there needs to be a distinction between someone trying to explain their faith to another and someone forcing their beliefs on another... I mean I listen to arguments atheists and agnostics make... without getting mad at them.... maybe one day somebody will put it in a way that is more rational then the way I see it, but until then I think I should have the same chance to let you try and see the issue of faith in the way that I see it... Agreed?!?
That's the thing, I don't argue, I tell people with religious faiths that I am agnostic and the reasons why I feel this way. I never say that their beliefs are wrong. The people with religious faiths usually say that I'm wrong and they want to explain to me how it really happened or they'll do the opposite and explain their said then tell me I'm wrong. Even though I am agnostic I used to go to church with friends who had religious faiths. One day we had a discussion on this very subject and everybody there told me I was wrong and that I couldn't be on both sides of the fence. I haven't been back to church since then except for Midnight Mass with my girlfriend and Easter with my girlfriend and her sister.
Catholic eh. My girlfriend is Catholic and when she took me to Midnight Mass I was totally confused. Maybe you could help me out a little and tell me more about Midnight Mass so next time I won't look so lost.
Pardon me for butting in here but I’d just like to reinforce what I think twhy77 is saying. I don’t think it’s right for anybody to tell you what to believe. It’s just not the way to approach the issue, and it doesn’t really make sense. Faith is a very personal experience. It is an experience that is similar for a quite a few people, and it is good for them to come together to share their faith and support each other and learn from each other. That’s what a church should be. BUT, at the root of it, it is a profoundly personal experience. People can tell you what it’s like for them, what their spiritual journey was like, but they can’t tell your journey should be exactly like theirs. It’s a journey that an individual must walk for themselves. As such, people can’t tell you you’re wrong, they can only tell you what their experience has been.
What would you like to know? Generally, midnight Mass is the same as all other Masses. The Catholic Mass is essentially the same week to week. Generally, the Priest and others (a combination of altar boys/girls, Lectors, Deacons, etc.) enter to a opening song. The Priest greets the congregation, some opening prayers are said and then there will be 3 readings. Oftentimes, the first reading is from the Old Testament, followed by a verse from Psalms that may be sung or read. The second reading is usually something from the new Testament. The Priest will then read the Gospel which comes from the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. Following the Gospel the Priest delivers a sermon. Oftentimes, it is a recap of the Gospel, or it could be about anything the Priest wants to talk about. Following the sermon, the Creed is recited, intentions are read and a collection is taken up. Following the collection the gifts of bread and wine are brought to the altar and received by the Priest. At this point the Priest transforms the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. This is a key point in the Catholic belief. We believe that the gifts were transformed into the body and blood of Christ and is not merely a symbolic gesture. This is one of the reasons Catholics prefer that those who receive Communion are Catholic, however, I have never seen anyone refused Communion regardless of their faith. More prayers are recited including the Lord's Prayer (Our Father...) and then a sign of peace is usually exchanged between parishioners. Communion is then distributed by the Priest and parishioners who have become 'Eucharistic Ministers'. Communion is always offered via the Communion wafer, or bread and most churches offer the wine as well. Following Communion, there are a few more prayers and the congregation is dismissed. At various Masses, some of the prayers may be sung and there is singing interspersed throughout the service. Regular masses tend to last about 60-70 minutes, while services for Holy Days may last longer. Throughout the year there are various days deemed as 'Holy Days of Obligation' where church attendance is required. These are New Year's Day (Solemnity of Mary), Feast of the Ascension of Jesus (Thursday of the 6th week following Easter), Feast of the Assumption of Mary (August 15), Feast of The Immaculate Conception (this celebrates the conception of Mary in her mother's womb), Christmas Day, All Saints Day (November 1). You will notice the absence of Easter in this list. Taht is because Easter always falls on a Sunday, thus there is always a requirement to attend that service. If New Years, the Assumption or All Saints falls on a Friday or Monday, then attendance at the Sunday Mass fulfills your obligation. Feel free to ask any other questions or comment on this.
Hey butt in all you want, the more information and opinions the better and more thorough a discussion will be. Thanks for the input.
bobrek, I was raised in a family that has believes in the Baptist faith. I noticed at Midnight Mass that Catholics don't bow their heads and/or close their eyes during prayers, why? Why do Catholics pray to Mary? At Midnight Mass or any mass since you said they are all basically alike, the congregation kept repeating things after the priest would say something and the entire congregation would say it in unison. What are these sayings that they kept repeating? I may have more question later if you don't mind. Thanks.
In general, Catholics don't bow their heads or close their eyes unless they choose to. There are a couple of lines in the Creed where you may notice a simple bow, but I suspect less than 10% of the parishioners ever do. I don't know the reasoning behind bowing or not bowing, but in all my years I can only remember being 'taught' to bow any time Jesus' name is mentioned in a prayer. Catholics should genuflect towards the 'Blessed Sacrament' upon entering and exiting Mass. This is usually an ornate cabinet (for lack of a better word) in which the consecrated bread (body of Christ) is kept. Catholics treat Mary as an intermediary between themselves and God. We believe that she was assumed (thus the feast of the Assumption) body and soul directly into Heaven. This is another big differenc between the Catholic faith and other Christian denominations. The Rosary is a prayer devoted to Mary and is oftentimes said at wakes. It is essentially a prayer to ask mary for intervention on behalf of a specific need. There are 'canned responses' that the parishioners give to things that a Priest says. For example: Priest - "Peace be with you" People - " And also with you" Priest - "Lift up your hearts" People - "We lift them up to the Lord" Priest - "Let us give thanks to the Lord our God" People - "It is right to give Him thanks and praise" They are generally affirmations of the Priest's prayers. The 'Order of the Mass' is contained here: http://www.painsley.org.uk/chapel/massordo.htm Keep the questions coming. I am sure twhy or others will chime in if I mistype anything or if their understanding is different than mine.
You are doing a good job bobrek.... Yeah, basically, the genuflection is from the bible, it was said that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, and so when you enter the church, we believe that the blessed sacrament is Jesus, and that we should bow out of respect and reverance towards him... As far as praying goes, people just do it differently depending on where they were raised... its really a mixture of tradition and scripture, when in front of the blessed sacrament you are expected to show reverence by either bowing, genuflecting, kneeling, or sitting while you pray or pass by, just a matter of simple respect and reverance for Christ... I'll try to find a Catholic cathechism weblink for you LP, good to see you're interested... Remember this though, its better to learn the values of a faith and the doctrines that faith holds before making a decision for or against it... i.e. what I'm trying to say is you might run into a few bad apples along the way but don't let it make you think the whole pie isn't worth eating....
Here's the link to the Catechism LP, hope it will help you understand your girlfriend a little better... http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/prologue.html
I hope you didn't interpret what I said as me not liking Catholics. I just didn't understand what they were doing coming from a Baptist background. I'm starting to piece it all together and have a better understanding of the religion or should I say it's service but not the religion as a whole. I don't stereotype so you don't have to worry about me saying anything negative about an entire religious population. There's nothing more I hate than steretypes and hypocrites, just read my Something That Really Pissed Me Off thread. I have come to my agnostic beliefs through my own reasoning without the help of others. I didn't have a bad religious experience BEFORE I came to this belief so you don't have to worry about that either. Thanks for all the info. If I have any other questions I'll be sure to ask.
I interpreted your questions as a genuine desire to learn and understand more as to the Catholic faith. I never have any problems with folks trying to teach me about their faith, however, I do not like it when my faith is insulted. I used to handle the web site for my church. On it we stated our parish 'mission statement'. An atheist actually emailed me complaining about the mission statement. She also complained to the city, county and other authorities because it started out as "We are a faith based community...". She took that to mean our city was a faith based community as opposed to our church. I had to explain to her that this was a private web site with no connection to the city (other than the fact the church existed in the city) and if she didn't like it, simply don't click on it. She then proceeded to denigrate those who believe in God, especially Catholics. I ended up "killing her with kindness and understanding" and she eventually apologized for the rudeness contained in some of her emails.
Just for context, I’m not a Catholic nor is anyone in my family Catholic. I consider myself a non-denominational Christian, but I agree with the basic Christian perspective Bobrek and twhy77 have been describing.
Yea I'm a conundrum. For the record, in my opinion there is a conscious supreme entity that is somehow responsible for the existence of the physical universe. I do not believe that there is any part of a human being that has a consciousness after death. But, I don't really have any proof one way or the other so I can't make any definitve declaration.
Just for the sake of discussion, you mentioned earlier moral codes and guilty consciences. If you don’t mind me asking, in your opinion what is the basis for a moral code, and what is the nature of a guilty conscience?
I adhere generally to the Judeo-Christian idea of morality, do unto others as you would have them do unto you just about covers the whole of it. I see these as a guideline for social interaction that promotes the general welfare. Like laws in a democratic society , they are arrived at by concensus but they are certainly more vague. They are taught to the young and reenforced later trough peer pressure. How closley on follows the gudeline is certainly and individual expression. We all know people that for instance lie but are still considered to be moral. For me, knowing I have violated my personal ehtics results in a stressful conflict in my on mind that expresses itself through stress i.e.headaches, sleeplessness, irritability etc. If I am in this state I am not enjoying my time and for me , my time on Earth is all I will ever have. I don't seem to need the threat of hell or the promise of heaven to motivate me. There are of course people who never learn a code of ehticis; we call them sociopaths. There are people who do not have a capacity for guilt; we call them psychopaths
