Okay, I have read *most* of this thread...very good reading. A couple of comments that I have: On homosexuality, several have quoted verses from the Bible that talk about God's condemnation of it, but the classic case of God's condemnation of it is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. That story is near the end of Genesis. On dinosaurs and prehistoric man, etc... I have always been interested in dinosaurs, prehistoric animals, Neanderthal man, etc, but it used to bother me that if you *literally* took the time out of the Bible to the present day, that the earth is only 4 or 5 thousand years old which we know from scientific evidence is absurd. However, I still believe that God created dinosaurs, sabre-toothed tigers, Neanderthal man, etc but what exactly was a day back then? 24 hours? I don't think we can say that. A day back then might have been thousands and thousands of years. Most Christians believe that God and Jesus are the SAME entity as is the Holy Spirit. That is what is meant by the Trinity aka God in 3 persons (himself, Christ, and the Holy Spirit). God took the form of a man in Christ (or His Son) to save mankind. The Holy Spirit, I think, is when God/Christ works through a human being like you, myself, your neighbor, pastor, etc. When you hear of a "good samaritan" tale, I feel that is the Holy Spirit working through that individual. As for drugs... Somewhere in the New Testament (you will have to forgive me as I don't read my Bible like I should) it is said that your body is a temple and as such, should be treated with care or something to that effect. Obviously, if you are abusing it with drugs, then you are damaging that temple and that is not pleasing to God.
If you mean that Paul’s teaching have been used by many churches, including many Protestant churches, in incorrect and even abusive ways, then I would probably agree with you. For those who have read Paul and found him legalistic, I think they may be reading him too narrowly in context. The end of Romans 1 is often quoted as a justification for judging homosexuality and homosexuals, for example, but read in conjunction with the beginning of Romans 2, which is clearly a continuation, it actually speaks against judgment of any kind. It’s my guess that this is the kind of problem that has lead to such extremely different readings of Paul. Yes, he speaks a lot of sin and judgement, but these are really just set ups for making points about grace and forgiveness, IMO. There are two paths and he speaks about both of them in detail, but I certainly believe that the point he is making is that the path that is characterized by “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control” is the right one and the one to follow.
well, if your feelings are gonna be hurt, I suppose I'll have to respond but don't say I didn't warn you ahead of time we will disagree strongly
Good Post Manny. I thought I would bring up the point that the "Trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible. Quite a few Christians believe being baptized in the "Trinity" form although I do not. I believe the true act of baptism is found in Acts 2:38. Just my two cents
Manny, Many scholars attribute that story not as a condemnation of homosexuality but of inhospitality. The Sodomites didn't practice loving, committed relationships. They basically anally raped those they didn't like. Thus it is reaching (imo, and in many others) to interpret the story as a a condemnation of all homosexual acts. Just curious, and not to derail this thread any more than it already is, but what do you consider abuse? Is smoking pot worse (in your eyes or god's eyes, take your pick) than drinking beer? Cocain? Caffeine?
Are you using my posts to help you go to sleep? I'd advise against operating heavy machinery How would God justify the 2yo in League city thing? Evil is not a thing, or an object, or a person. Evil is a wrong relationship with God. (Take for example a murder by gunshot. The gun in itself is not evil. The shot itself was not evil. What was evil was the motive, intent, choice of the shooter.) If you read Genesis 1:6, you find that there is only the Creator and His creations, and that He calls them "very good". (We understand that the Creator is "all-good") He even created Lucifer and the angels as good, perfect beings. So where did evil come from if God didn't create it? Humans are defined by their free will. Our choices are who we are because that's how God made us. Although it would have been nice if all our choices had agreed with what God wanted for us, it was not meant to be. Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Because God is all-good and we chose to live apart from God's desire for us, our sin caused our relationship with Him to be broken. Humanity brought evil upon itself. Evil can be catagorized into two types: the sin we will into existence, and the suffering resulting from our relationship with nature. The sin we want to do, and the suffering we don't want to experience. Most schools of psychology understand that the body and the soul are interconnected. We aren't ghosts in shells. (An example would be a poem like "Roses are red, violets are blue..." The sounds and the syllables are the poem's form, while the message of the poem is its meaning.) Because we are "psychosomatic" unions, whatever affects the soul should naturally affect the body. Because our soul is separated from God due to our sin, it stands to reason that our body should be separated from characteristics that define God. That would mean our bodies would be subject to hatred, to pain, and to death. This is what we find in Genesis 3. So not only are we responsible for the evil of sin, but also suffering (since we sinned just as Adam and Eve had done). So what purpose does evil have? Without the opportunity to sin, to have a choice apart from God, we really wouldn't have a choice. Our will wouldn't be free. Instead we would be robots or mindless animals. The purpose for suffering is either for discipline for sin, or as a deterrent for it. If God allows evil to exist, isn't it like He approves of it? Actually, He did something about it. If you think of someone who commits a crime, either he can be punished for it and justice is done, or no punishment is given and mercy is given. Justice and mercy are opposites that cannot be realized at the same time. But Jesus did just that, He forgave us. He identified evil as evil that deserves death, yet the death sentence was given to Him undeservedly. Jesus fulfilled justice by dying for our sins, while granting us mercy from our deserved death sentence. Jesus took away the effects of our sins, and gave us an opportunity for salvation through repentance. So back to the inital question, "why did God allow things like that to happen?" He gave everyone the choice to follow Him or not. Suffering affects everyone because we are all sinners. Even though what happened was evil, the all powerful, all good, all loving God can still use it for something good, even though we could probably never imagine what good that could be. (Like in the story of Joseph, where his brothers were jealous and sold him away. Then his boss' wife tried to rape him, but got him thrown in prison for the attempted rape of her. From there he was put in charge of Egypt and saved his people from famine.)
Inerrant means "no error." I believe the Bible is primarily error. I don't care if we call it the banana doctrine. It's the doctrine that finds the Bible the inspired work of God, throughout. My tone is factual and historical, and probably a tad officious. When the Cardinals elect a Pope, it's not God casting the votes. When commissions meet to add to and take away from the books of the bible, their motives are suspect because of the men who gave them power and the things they did with that power. God didn't make the Bible, Constantine did. My position is more dogmatic than yours. I'm completely intractable.
definitely the hospitiality God had already decided to destroy both cities and everyone in them BEFORE the locals tried to bugger the two angels. Any suggestion that God torched the cities because Uday wanted to nail the angel is strictly a fantasy. After his wife turned into salt, Lot went up into the mountains and lived in a cave with his two totally hot, bi-sexual daughters, where they got him drunk and had kids by him, thereby showing that God loves Arkansas after all. *I added the bi-sexual part to enhance the word image.
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your BODIES as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship" (Romans 12:1). "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple" (1Cor 3:16-17). these are the two verses cited as the body = temple line it's been used for everything from no tatoos, to no piercings, to what you eat. what about the person who sucks down fried meat every day? eats refined sugar? takes anti-inflammatories? gets too much sun?
Thanks, ROCKSS. I am ashamed to admit that even though I call myself a Christian, I am woefully behind in knowing my scripture. Yea, on the Trinity thing, it is just like other things that set Methodists (my denomination) apart from Baptists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Pentecostal, etc. At the Methodist church I go to, you get baptized by sprinkling as an infant but you have to later on in your life get up in front of the church to profess that Christ is your Lord and Savior. Yet, many Baptist churches (or at least around where I live which is the good ole South ) feel that to be "truly" baptized, you must go through immersion and not sprinkling. What makes it even more confusing to me is that you not only have Southern Baptists, but Free Will Baptists, and scores of independent Baptist churches. dylan, Dude! It has been forever since I have seen you around here...hope everything is going well! Getting back to what I quoted, I don't doubt that you are right but I have always heard Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of a city that was "sexually immoral" and that homosexuality (which anal raping is a homosexual act, right?) was one of the practices committed. It is probably a stretch to say that the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah is a condemnation of all homosexual acts, but I do think that the sexual immorality (homosexuality-anal raping included) that exists in those two cities were one of the reasons that God struck such a swift and powerful blow on those cities. Well, this one, to me, is tougher. I feel that as long as it does not control your life, then it is okay to have a beer or a cigarette or even smoking pot every once awhile. However, when it gets to be an addiction and causes damage to your body like cirrhosis, emphysema, cancer, etc, then yes, I think that you are sinning as God did not intend for an individual to destroy their body like that. However, noticed that I said "I think".
you wouldn't be different from the Presbyterian, Episcopalian, or Lutheran faiths...they all practice infant baptisms. i think we focus way too much on our tiny doctrinal differences without working together...without reaching out in love together. there is far more that protestant congregations have in common than they have apart.
Max, I agree completely. I just think it is shameful that some Christians (talking about ones that I have been around in my hometown) feel that just because you are not a certain denomination then it is like you are not a Christian at all. If all denominations could work together and put any past differences behind them, then our religion could really become more powerful, especially to those who are thinking about joining or converting to Christianity.
Are you asking why bad things happen to good people, even though you're ok with bad things happening to bad people? If so, my answer is there are no good people. Humanity as a whole caused unwanted suffering on ourselves. It is a terrible consequence of sin. Rom. 3:23 says 'all have sinned'. You may argue that because she hasn't reached the age of accountability for her actions, God should have prevented it. And I would answer that God promises He is always working for our good, even though we won't always be able to see it from His perspective. Rom. 8:28 says (God's) power is made perfect in weakness. It is times like these, where we know we can't do anything about it, that we can attribute any goodness that does result to God alone. If you need a better response, you would probably have to ask Him directly.
actually, the churches that are growing are the non-denominational churches...their names don't carry with them the baggage that comes from having an attachment to any one denomination. i'm with you...it's so sad to see that kind of division...a product of religion, not spirituality.
I never said it was OK for bad things to happen to bad people. Don't assume before asking. What sin could this two year old have possibly committed to justify such a horrible act? She lied about stealing a cookie from the jar so it's justified because she is naturally evil and broke one of the Commandments? I don't know of any good that could possibly come from this case. What about stillborn infants, what the hell have they done? Oh yeah, since we are all born with original sin and have to repent for these sins does that mean that all stillborn infants are destined to go to hell? That's another thing. Why can't anything bad that happens be attributed to God and we just say that God did some f*cked up sh*t? Like the case with the 2 year old, you admit that it was bad thing that happened but God is using it as some form of good and of course us being simple dumbass humans don't undertsand any of it and aren't supposed to. Yeah maybe I should ask him myself or maybe I should ask this wall I'm facing right now, I'm sure I would receive the same answer from both. Now I'm not trying to argue or fight with you but just trying to understand your stance and giving you mine and my questions.
That's the whole point about our decision about God. Is He everything He says He is? Is He good, and just, and compassionate, and true? Or is god not all-powerful and/or all-good? Is what He says is good really not so good, and what He says is evil could be good? This is the crux of the matter. I only have a little more I can add that can bring a little more clarity than what I've already posted, then I'm gone for the weekend. Growing up (or being raised as kids), most people are taught that when you do something good, you deserve a reward. Conversly, if you do something bad, you deserve punishment. But we don't always see that whether we obey or disobey, our parents should still love us. Sometimes also we miss that whether we do bad or good, we can still suffer. This girl didn't deserve this atrocity because she sinned, but it was allowed to happen because she (and her father) are human, and as such, are part of humanity. I know my only exposure to what happened is through the media. I have no contact with that family, or their neighbors, or anyone else they had contact with. Other than the trial, I doubt the media will cover them or any of those relations anymore. And no coverage will be given to those who have read and seen the story on the news. If you could cover all those bases and know no good will come out of anywhere, I could concede this point to you. It's all about how limited our perspective is compared to the perspective of an infinite, omnipresent being.
