By far the 3 best players on the list are Magic, Robertson and West. If you consider them PGs (Magic for sure is, Robertson and West I am less sure if they played more PG than SG), no question these are the best 3 PGs--and light years better than Stockton. Cumulative stats don't describe the best of the greats IMO. I have always been a big Emmitt Smith fan, but does anyone really believe he is better than Jim Brown? Is Pete Rose the best baseball player of all time, if Malone gets the Pts record does that mean he is a better player than Wilt, Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Robertson, West, etc, of course not to both. There was just no way Stockton could dominant a game like Magic, West or Robertson could--those guys are in a different league of greatness.
I thought J. West was great, but I don't think I would put him with Oscar, Magic and maybe Stockton. Holding up Magic's rings as the measure is valid, but I think you should also consider the rest of the teams. Stockton basically has had one guy to play with, Malone. Magic had an incredible team to work with. With the exception of the season where Magic had to play center, put Oscar and Stockton on those teams in place of Magic, and I think the odds are they would have as many rings. Do you really think Magic would have 5 rings if he had played with the Jazz? I think its more likely that Oscar and Stockton would have 5 rings on those Laker teams than Magic would have 5 rings playing on Jazz teams. I can't speak to Cousy, because he retired before I really started watching the NBA. One other thing... Magic was the first player allowed to carry the ball without a getting called. I wonder what Oscar could have done with that advantage.
on Magic vs Stockton Actually with Stockton instead of Magic I would not be surprised if only 1 or 2 times those Lakers teams win the title. Those teams were beating great Boston, 6ers, and Piston teams in very close series for the most part. You take out Magic and put in Stockton, no, I don't think they come out on top of most of them. The winning edge was often very close, and every one of Magic's key rebounds and points along with assists were key--Stockton simply could not do all those things at Magic's level (maybe assists he could, but not the rest). Now you put (a young in his prime) Magic on the Jazz, they probably beat the Bulls at least 1 out of 2 (Bulls-Jazz were pretty close series as well), and they almost assuredly win in 1999 (the Spurs year). They might well had taken one of our titles away too (94 or 95). So yes, I think the gap between Stockton and Magic is huge. A few more assists by Stockton does not come close to compensate for the additional points, rebounds and just the impossible individual match-up problems Magic provided. on Jerry West Yes, I think Jerry West is a heck of a lot closer to Robertson/Magic level of greatness than Stockton is to him. Here are some excerpts from a full capsule: http://www.nba.com/history/players/west_bio.html During his 14-year playing career with the Los Angeles Lakers, West became synonymous with brilliant basketball. He was the third player in league history to reach 25,000 points (after Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson). He was an All-Star every year of his career and led Los Angeles to the NBA Finals nine times. He left the game holding records for career postseason scoring and the highest average in a playoff series. During the remaining 13 seasons of West's playing career the Lakers missed the Finals only four times. Unrealistic or not, West the perfectionist propelled the Lakers to the Finals repeatedly in the 1960s and early 1970s. In 1961-62 West established himself as a deadly scoring threat in only his second year in the league. That year he averaged 30.8 points, the first of four seasons in which he averaged better than 30 points. The Lakers had risen from third place in the division to first since West's arrival, posting a 54-26 record. In the playoffs West averaged 31.5 points. Despite the Lakers' failure to win more league titles, most of West's legendary exploits came during the postseason. In the 1965 NBA Playoffs, West averaged 40.6 points over 11 contests; his 46.3 average against Baltimore in the division finals was a record for a six-game series. In 1965-66 West had another stellar year, averaging 31.3 points and finishing behind only Wilt Chamberlain in the scoring race. He also ranked fourth in both assists (6.1 apg) and free-throw percentage (.860). In the playoffs he kept up his torrid scoring pace, averaging 34.2 points over 14 contests. Boston won another NBA Finals matchup, prevailing in Game 7 at Boston Garden, 95-93. In the 1969 NBA Finals against Boston, West became the only member of a losing team ever to win the Finals MVP Award. As players on a perennial bridesmaid team, West and Baylor were frequently eclipsed by Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, and Bill Russell, who collectively won virtually every Most Valuable Player Award during West's and Baylor's most productive years. Although both ranked among the top four leading scorers in history when they retired, neither man ever won the award. Still, West was named to the All-NBA First Team 10 times in his career, and he was selected to the NBA All-Defensive First Team in four of his final five seasons. Prior to the 1971-72 season the 33-year-old West was considering retirement. He thought of the broken noses, the broken hands, the pulled muscles.and the lost championships. West returned, however, and helped make history. With Chamberlain now in the middle and Gail Goodrich pitching in on offense, the Lakers won a record 33 games in a row under new coach and former Celtics star Bill Sharman. At midseason they were 39-3. At year's end they were 69-13, the best single-season record in NBA history. Despite his age and physical problems West kept scoring, averaging 25.8 points while leading the NBA in assists with 9.7 per contest. Having come this far, West would not be denied an NBA title. In the playoffs the Lakers swept the Chicago Bulls in four games and beat the Milwaukee Bucks in six. In the 1972 NBA Finals against the Knicks, Los Angeles lost Game 1 but then won four straight by relatively large margins. Including playoff games, the Lakers' record for the year was 81-16. West's long wait had ended. He had finally won a championship, in one of the greatest seasons ever for an NBA team. In 1974 the 36-year-old West left the game as the NBA's third-leading career scorer, behind Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson, with 25,192 points in 932 games. (Five other players later passed him.) His average of 27.0 points per game stands as the fourth highest ever, behind Michael Jordan, Chamberlain, and Baylor. His 31.2 points per game in 1969-70 (at age 31) is the highest average ever for a player over 30. And his 6,238 career assists (6.7 apg) rank among the best ever. Only Jordan had a higher career scoring average in the playoffs, and only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tallied more career points in the postseason. Career Statistics G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts PPG 932 .474 .814 5376 5.8 6238 6.7 81 23 25192 27 In sum, Jerry West looks a lot like John Stockton with Larry Bird's shooting ability
Also, for the record by 1994 it was pretty well known around the league Stockton was the inferior player to GP. GP could simply dominate him. I won't say GP is the greater overall player or greater PG because I think you do factor in longevity in there somewhere--just pointing out that Stockton at most was the best PG playing a couple of years between when Magic retired (early) as a PG and before the rise of GP. Some interesting info: Stockton's best year 1990 17.2 PPG, 2.6RPG, 14.5APG, 2.7 SPG Career: 13.2PPG, 2.7RPG, 13.2APG, 2.2SPG Isiah's in 1985 21.2PPG, 4.5RPG, 13.9APG, 2.3SPG Career: 19.2PPG, 3.5RPG, 9.3APG, 1.9SPG Payton's in 1999 24.2PPG, 6.5RPG, 8.9APG, 1.9SPG Career: 18.1PPG, 4.2RPG, 7.3APG, 2.1SPG Magic's in (year of Stockton's best) 1990 22.3 PPG, 6.6RPG, 11.5APG, 1.7 SPG best year (probably): 1989 22.5 PPG, 7.9RPG, 12.8APG, 1.8 SPG Career: 19.7PPG, 7.3RPG, 11.4APG, 1.9SPG West's in 65-66 31.3PPG, 6RPG(est), 6.1APG, SPG(?) West at age 33 71-72 25.8PPG, 5RPG(est), 9.7APG, SPG(?) West in his career: 27PPG, 5.8RPG, 6.7 APG, SPG(?) Robertson's in 61-62 30.8PPG, 12.5RPG, 11.4APG, SPG(?) Career: 25.6PPG, 9.5RPG, 7.5 APG, SPG(?) In sum, I think Stockton is in the level of the first 3, the 2nd three are a whole level greater (I think it is safe to assume--though statistics on it are not available--that West and Robertson's steal numbers would be better than Isiah's and Magic's if not ourgiht the best). You also have to consider only Isiah in the first 3 have won a championship. Finally, Stockton's best year is clearly smoked by Magic, West, Robertson and Isiah's best year, and even by Magic's year the same year of Stockton's best year as well as what Jerry West put up at age 33. Now you might give the nod of greatness of Stockton over Isiah or visa versa (and both a smidgen above Payton for now )--that is a tough call. Personally if I were drafting I would not hesitate in taking Isiah Thomas (a little bit more dominant in his heyday) over Stockton (who never was as great but lasted a little longer). I might take Stockton over Payton though because of all the players above the one player whose cluthness and leadership capabilities you might knock would be GP. Finally, I might rethink my #1 vote and give it to Robertson over Magic among those talked about. Not sure really, those two IMO are the best two with West as a very solid and secure #3. Again, Stockton belongs in the discussion with Isiah, Cousy, Frazier and a few others in the next tier of greatest PGs.
