You really need to go back and read my post. My law partner practices family law. ANY adoption is FAR from being a slam dunk. They get shot down for any reason, or no reason at all. I really wanted to read this thread, because I find the issue interesting. I have decided that I really do not have the time to slug through 14 pages of posts, making thoughtful responses, just to find out that anybody who introduces food for thought on the other side is being called names like bigot, and being labelled as somebody who "just doesn't get it" and that hopefully, one day, they'll "get there." You know that I respect you as a person, and that I have always valued your opinion. That being said, you do not have a corner on the market making you the arbiter of moral superiority. Whether you like it or not, there are two sides to this issue. This is a hotly debated issue nationwide. I disagree with pgabriel on a good many things. I think anybody who reads this board knows that. After I read his comments and your response is to race bait (by throwing out the interracial commentary) and to then call him a bigot. It's just disappointing. At that point, all rational, intellectual and earnest debate of this issue vanished. I'm out of this one, that being the case.
I'm sorry to hear that, Refman. I respect you too. But when civil rights for blacks were actually being debated - when half or more of the country thought that wasn't a good idea - people that opposed them were similarly put off by being called racist even while we now universally regard those people to have been such. Back then, they "struggled" with the idea. They felt it was an entirely reasonable position to oppose equal rights for people of all races. And it was impolite to call them racist in response to that, even though their positions were entirely rooted in racism. I understand the maxim about catching more flies with sugar and all that, but many, MANY of my best friends are gay and they were born that way. I am well past patience with people who say they're not bigots but they just don't approve of those people or the lives they lead. People die from the shame associated with being themselves in a society that accepts bigotry against gays. It is wrong and I have zero tolerance for that particular brand of intolerance. If that makes me a dick in your mind, that's too bad but it won't change my opinion or my expression of it. As it was in the 60s with blacks, it is well past time people get over this particular prejudice. After the gay marriage BS in the 2004 election a friend wrote one time, "I just hope that ten years from now, people who voted Republican will be able to look their gay friends in the eyes and say they're sorry." I feel that way about all anti-gay ideology (or "I struggle with this" ideology). And if you're offended by my moral sureity on this subject, I'm sorry about that too. But I am very sure about it.
I'd meant to respond to this bit directly. I understand that people get shot down for various reasons or no reason, but if they get shot down because they are gay that is bigotry.
p.s. My apologies. I misread your post, you're right. I thought you'd said hetero adoptions were a slam dunk, not that they weren't. My bad.
WS&C - you are, of course, free to raise your child as you choose. But make no mistake about this: your behavior is genuinely bigoted. Don't give yourself an easy out on it - just acknowledge the fact that you are bigoted and that you feel your daughter should also be that way. No point in trying to soften it.
I'm just wondering why everybody automatically assumed that WS&C was the dad and not the mum. The screen name sounded more like a girl's name to me. Or possibly a name that a gay person would choose...not that there is anything wrong with that.
Their is no comparison . . .read where I stated that in the original post about it The point is . . . these are things that someone would disagree with YOU BATMAN have turned this into a thread about GAY RIGHTS and GAY VICTIMIZATION HOWEVER IT is a thread about PARENTING A PARENT should *NEVER* put his child in harms way to be politically correct, save someone else's feelings or anything If someone did not want to come to my house because we are black It would offend me In this case. . I am quite sure he will offend these people HOWEVER If he feels it is best for *HIS/or HER CHILD* Which he should always do .. . Do you disagree with that Arguing his/her views. . . is not at issue here Had he said something like bigamist/satanist/etc . . .would you be defending it? Would you be telling YEA SEND YOU KIDS OVER THERE! QUESTION: What is wrong with Bigamy? What is so much MORE WRONG WITH BIGAMY than GAY? WHAT MAKES GAY OK and BIGAMY NOT? cause by you tone. . you obviously seem to think Gay is better than Bigamy? [BIGAMY WHICH IS *ALSO* BETWEEN CONSENTING ADULTS] I don't know any Devil worshippers personally Until I know more about them . . I only have the perception to go by The point is simple BATMAN PARENTS SHOULD PROTECT THERE KIDS FROM *PERCEIVED* DANGER PERIOD! He/she is perceiving danger . . . So . . . He/SHe should to Protect their child. . . . . PERIOD NOW You have been arguing the irrationality of his Perception To me . .. that is not what they are asking They have their beleifs and have not asked you to change their minds They are asking how to be politically correct about the thing How to be *biased* without being *mean* and *offensive* Personally, I don't think it could be done You are quick correct It is more interesting Even I got caught up in it. Rocket River
DD My daughter will not be "punished". She does not even know about the party. In the unlikely event that she ever discovers that we skipped the party, we can simply tell her that we were busy that day and weren't able to attend. ... again, please make sure you clearly understand the word "prejudice" before you accuse people... a father and stepfather can be explained to my daughter in a much easier way than two gay fathers (in fact, she already knows what divorce is and how kids can have a father and stepfather). ... My wife feels exactly the same way I do. ... It's interesting how some people can say that kids will be oblivious to such things, while others say that kids are smarter than we think and pick up on things that we don't realize. You're contributing to that paradox. .... and, please, let's not bring up scripture. Batman When I buy my daughter a pair of regular scissors, I'm taking a step in guiding her toward a path of being right-handed. This does not mean that I will force her to be right-handed, and will hate her if she tells me she's left-handed. When the day comes that my daughter indicates that she's left-handed, I will not force her to be right-handed. Nor will I attempt force her to be hetero if she ever tells me she's homo. But until that day comes, I will guide her down the path of being hetero. It sounds as if you feel that I will be forcing my daughter to do things that she doesn't want to do, and I will deny her things that she may want all becaue of my beliefs. That is not at all the case. And as I have clearly stated, if the day ever comes that my daughter (or son) tells me they're gay, I will not shun them and I will always love them. ... Your opinions and views do not offend me - I posted here for the purpose of hearing different views from others. Your accusations, however, do. You sound as if you have much experience in understanding the views of gay people. You also sound very much as if you have absolutely no idea what it means to guide a child. Rocket River's analogy of bigamy is very interesting! Batman, please respond to it. I want to hear what you have to say about it. UGH! I'm a hetero male (father). Is my WS&C moniker THAT feminine? (It's the title of a song by Crystal Method).
No offense intended, WS&C . I thought you presented a valid question and I can relate to how you feel in this situation. Personally, I would probably let my kid go there, I don't think any harm could possibly be done by it. I can respect your decision, though, I don't think it means you are a bad or prejudiced person by any means. It's been funny to watch Batman Jones in this thread just reveling in his self-perceived moral superiority, yet bringing his argument across in a bitter and condescending fashion (all the "I'm rooting for you until you finally get it and become as good a person as I already am" crap) and as so often acting like someone who cannot accept differing opinions without resulting to insults. So much barely suppressed anger...
None taken - I was smiling about it. Thank you! You sound like you have formed an opinion after having an open mind and recognizing different views. I respect that.
No - his example is with consenting adults. If the party invitation came from a family where a man is consensually married to three women and raising children (from the various multiple wives), how would you feel about your 7-year-old girl going to the party?
Well if they are an "out of sight, out of mind" issue for her and not part of any daily/weekly/monthly life then certainly she would not be "missing out" on anything by not going to the party. I just wasn't sure if it would be something she knew about but you would say you were not going to attend or knew about two daddies but you guys just didn't talk about it. If it has been two years since seeing them, though, they probably don't exist so no biggie. I, personally, would go if I liked the guys but regardless of sexuality I would not go to a birthday party just because they were neighbors. Have you decided what you will tell the two guys when/if you decline the invite?
Even since I got caught up in the discussion, I never weighed in on the question at hand. I would attend the child's birthday party. It sounds from the original post that these are good neighbors. If you do not attend, and a lot of people fail to attend, the only person who loses is the child whose birthday it is. You don't have to give a ringing endorsement of their lifestyle (not that they are asking for it or that it is really your business). I hope that you make a good decision and one that you are comfortable with. Batman...in my book we are still cool. I think it is important to note that a friend of mine, who happens to be gay, has been living with his life partner for 10 years. They are wonderful, loving people. He once told me that he felt that the vast majority of gay men are not equipped to raise a child. It is not just heteros that wrestle with this issue.
The 1st comment is about right Party invites are turned down all the time for all kinds of reasons At this point, It does not seem that WS&C is particularly close to these folx Rocket River
Poor kid ~ if he is your daughter's friend then she should go to the party. This is assuming that she will be in a safe environment and the only thing preventing her from going are your concerns about the parents. WSC, if your daughter was having a little b-day party would you invite the boy? /late to the thread...
He is not my daughter's friend. They are very different age groups and she basically only knows his name. I do feel bad that my decision. No I wouldn't, but primarily because my daughter doesn't have any kind of close friendship with any kids in our neighborhood except for one kid.
