Baron is a leader and a great PG. Steve seems to live in a perpetual playground game. He needs to get over that mentality and then maybe he'll be as good as Baron. Saying Baron is better does not make you a Laker fan or a bandwagon jumper.
Shooting maybe even, but Baron does shoots 56% FT, so i would say: slight edge to Steve. Scoring: steve defense: Baron Passing: slight edge to Baron Rebounding: Steve by Far attitude: even. Clutch ability: steve was #1 in Nestle crunch clutchplays before his injury. So you can't say baron is better. i think Steve has a slight edge. overal Steve. Ok he had a bad year. but he had injurys and he has got that migraine, but give my Francis over baron any time. Baron does have a nice suporting cast. Francis is better. i agree. Don't complain about Francis. he has been great
Uh, no. Even if Stevie wasn't injured, I still think Baron is better now. HOWEVER, it seems that Baron is about as good as he's going to get NOW, while I would guess Steve could still improve significantly.
Look, Until Francis LEADS his team, he will be subject to these comparisons. Francis is a very very good one on one player, but he has not learned how to WIN in the NBA. I would be happy to have Davis, Miller or Francis, I think the NBA is going to be fine once they all hit their prime. Francis has a higher upside then all of them, but that does not mean he will ever reach it. Right now.....Davis is slightly better and Miller is even with Francis, only because both Davis and Miller have higher basketball IQs. DaDakota
Shooting: Baron Scoring: Same defense: Baron Passing: Baron Rebounding: Even attitude: BARON. Clutch ability: Baron's in the playoffs w/ 2 triple-dips Overall: Baron Why rebounding even? Steve has no rebounders, Baron does. Baron has a way better attitude than Stevie. Way better.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Steve Francis had an off year. Likely, it is due to the migraines. In points and rebounds, he had better stats than in his previous two seasons. In every other major category though, he's had the worst performance of his career. This does not mean that he's somehow getting worse. It means the basketball he's shown this year is not his best ball; we've seen better ball even in his rookie season and we can expect to see better ball in the future when his health improves. And when you compare the 2 players statistically, Francis still stacks up very well against Davis even in his worst statistical year. He scores more points, rebounds much better, shoots FT better, shoots slightly better within the arc and slighly worse outside of it and trails somewhat in steals and assists. Considering this was Francis' worst season ever due to injuries and illness and for Davis it is largely an improvement over past seasons (his FG% and FT% are down, but he has improved significantly everywhere else) and they still look statistically comparable, I'd much sooner take Francis. Now compare the Steve Francis from the '00/'01 season. He puts Baron Davis of '01-'02 to shame (not to mention his own incarnation in '02). Can you imagine his performance this year if he had the pre-migraine shooting percentages? Francis '02 Points: 21.6 (highest ever) Assists: 6.4 (lowest ever) Rebounds: 7.0 (highest) Steals: 1.25 (lowest) FG %: 41.7 (lowest) 3P %: 32.4 (lowest) FT %: 77.3 (lowest) Davis '02 Points: 18.1 (highest ever) Assists: 8.5 (highest) Rebounds: 4.3 Steals: 2.1 FG %: 41.7 (lowest ever) 3P%: 35.6 (highest) FT %: 58.0 (lowest) Francis '01 Points: 19.9 Assists: 6.5 Rebounds: 6.9 Steals: 1.8 (highest ever) FG %: 45.1 (highest) 3P %: 39.6 (highest) FT %: 81.7 (highest)
Really? You wouldn't even think twice? All I can say is WOW! Somebody who is a long-time poster help me out here, because I wasn't here last season. I'm really curious if everybody was this negative of Steve last year when he was healthy and the Rockets overachieved to a 45 win season. I would be very surprised if that was the case. If somebody would have suggested trading Steve for Baron last year that person probably would have never posted again because of the brutal bashing he would have received. In fact, I can almost bet that there were posts about Steve being too UNselfish last season. Am I right or wrong? I hate to say it, but I get a great, big "fair-weather fan feeling" from a lot of you people. Turning on a guy who you are supposed to be supporting and rooting for after an unusual, injury-ridden season...have you no shame?
Being a UCLA Basketball fan I have always liked Baron Davis. I think Its hard to tell if he at the level Francis is at. Keep in mind that Davis is in the East and Francis is in the West. Davis does seem to have a clutch factor to him. We haven't been able to see anything from Francis in the playoffs yet so it is still too early to say which is better. edit - I agree with Pued and Haven, Baron Davis has a supporting cast with Elden Campbell, PJ Brown, Jamal Mashburn, David Wesley, and upcoming Jamal MaGloire. You guys think Baron Davis would have 10 assists a game if he was passing to Cuttino Mobley, Kelvin Cato, Walt Williams, or Kenny Thomas? If you do you are insane. Francis has nothing to work with. Defensive Player? Define Good Defense. Every team in this league gives up 100 points many times a season, The NBA is all about offense.
You're also on record as saying you'd take Payton and Marbury over Steve. So I guess the real question is who would you not take over Steve?
And Payton isn't better?! Payton is arguably the best PG in the NBA. And what really distinguishes Marbury from Steve? Marbury put up crazy numbers in New Jersey and he never won a damn thing. Stevie's putting up crazy numbers and is consistently losing. They're about the same I'd say. But Nash, Payton and Baron are all better than Stevie. Marbury is about equal I'd say.
Payton in his third season: 13.9 ppg, 4.9 apg Nash in his third season: 7.9 ppg 5.5 apg If you think they are better than Steve now, that's fine. But if you think the Rockets should trade Francis for either of those two players, then you're an idiot.
DcKid, We have reached agreement. I agree that Francis has a huge upside, in fact the Rocks are counting on it. The 3rd and 4th years are the ones that show the most improvement. I hope Steve tears it up next year. DaDakota
DCkid-There's a difference between which PG's you would trade Francis for, as opposed to which ones are better. The ones I would trade Francis for would be Kidd and Baron. Now, the PGs who I think are better right now are... Nash Payton Kidd Davis Miller You could make an argument that Marbury is as good if not better.
The difference between Davis/Miller/Nash/etc and Francis is that the former group has learned to play more within the team confines. No, they aren't as capable as Francis one-on-one or in terms of pure talent. But they know how to do their thing within the framework of the game. With Francis, a lot of what he does is basically one-on-one/iso type stuff -- other players can't do it, so it's certainly a great skill, but teams generally don't want them doing it anyway. When Francis learns to use his skills and interact with the team simultaneously, he will become a phenomenal player.
DaDakota, glad we could reach an agreement!!! That doesn't happen too often. Kidrock, I know there's a difference. I would agree that 3.5 of the guards you mentioned are currently better than Steve; however, I still wouldn't trade Francis for Kidd or Baron. Kidd for two reasons. One, a point guard like Kidd is only to going to help a team who already has some talent to work with. He can make a good team a great team, but I don't think he can carry a bad team like Steve can (for proof, see Andre Miller). And unfortunately, right now Steve is playing with a bad team. Two, Kidd is almost thirty and doesn't have much more room for improvement. As for Davis, that's a little tougher. But all I can do is look to last season when a healthy Steve led the Rockets to an overachieving 45-win season in the conference that is not a complete joke. If you look at this season, then you would probably have to give Davis the edge. But I just have a hard time jumping to the conclusion of trading Steve for Davis after such an unfortunate season. Do you really see Davis being a better player than Steve five years from now?
...Do we really want to know the answer to that?...I am not seeing such a progress with Steve, like I had hoped...
