bagwell...best ever

Agreed. It's just Cal had several years where he hit .260, but he is an above average offensive ss as well.

You know my opinion of Cal. I also wouldn't take Piazza over him, or Garciaparra. I'd like to see Nomar's #'s over the next few years before I do that.

Manny is an rbi machine, and if he keeps that up, I'd take him over Bagwell. Edgar is a DH, so I would not take him over Bagwell.

 

You would really take Bags over Piazza. Piazza is a better hitter over pretty much the same period as Bagwell and plays a much more difficult position. Granted Piazza has an average arm at best, but he can still play that position defensively (covers the traditionally underperforming catcher spot and freeing up the roster for a 1B) and it is my understanding pitchers like how he calls a game.

I agree Nomar has a lot to prove over time but so does Manny. Over his career Juan G has better (or at least equal) #'s than Manny--both of whom have mainly played around other good hitters and scoring machine teams (perhaps inflated RBIs), I would take Bags over either.

But Edgar's best years were at 3rd, and he surely equalled Chipper Jones offensive numbers but did it longer. In the NL or on a different team he would be a 1b or 3b today. Edgar never got the pub, but I think between him and Bags is perhaps the most interesting comparison I can think of.

Also, neither you nor anyone else has taken me to task about picking Pudge Rodriguez over Bagwell, I thought some might.

 

Few points:

On Helton: Helton's home/road splits can be answered. Colorado players, once they leave Colorado, usually perform somewhere in the middle of their splits. I think it must be that Coors acclimates a player to a certain style of hitting... that can't be adjusted from series to series, but can be over a few months. If we assume Helton's #'s are somewhere in the middle, Bagwell is better.

Really? Then you'd be a very bad GM.

Ken Griffey Jr has been declining for three years. He's only a good CF now. Bagwell is still a great 1B.

Sosa: Sosa hits homers. Yes. But I'm not convinced he's substantially more valuable than Bagwell due to huge career OBP differences. In fact, Bagwell has had a much better career than Sammy, even if Sammy does smack tons of homers.

Chipper Jones: Chipper plays a more valuable defensive position, but he has a .943 career OPS. Bagwell's is is .969... and Bagwell's OBP accounts for a larger % of that than Chipper's, which is the more important statistic.

Finally, Bagwell played for most of his career in the biggest pitcher's park in baseball. Turner field isn't a Coors-type place, but it ain't a pitcher's park either.

Bagwell has been a substantially better hitter than Jones, despite playing for worse teams (which affects #'s).

A-Rod... well, you're right. A-Rod's the most valuable player in baseball though, except for MAYBE Pedro Martinez.

 

That had to be the most lopsided trade in one team's favor ever. It's sad that the Red Sox felt that it would be lopsided in their favor at the time it was done.

 

Piazza is an absolutely horrible defensive catcher. Have you ever watched how he sets up if he has to apply a tag? It's horrible. The man is really afraid of getting nailed in a collision. His arm is below average as well. He earns some runs for his offense but costs quite a bit with his defense as well.

Also there's talk of moving him out of the catcher spot cause he's getting too banged up. Remove him from beind the plate and he's not that special. An above average hitter, sure, but nothing great.

I want to see Nomar play more than 120 games in a season at least two seasons in a row before I anoint him as better then Bagwell. One of Bagwell's greatest traits is his consistency. Other than '94 he hasn't really had any completely awe-inspiring years. He's just been extremely good for many years in a row...

 

Your point about Manny Ramirez playing around with guys who would make it easy for him to drive in runs is good except for one thing: what about this year?

Don't even try to tell me that he has had great players to play around to make it easy for him to drive in 118 or 120 runs or however many he has right now. Garciaparra has been out for the whole season except for 20 games, Carl Everett is laughable, and there is really no one else (sorry, Dante Bichette). So, what Manny is doing this year is even more incredible and proof that this guy is a RBI machine and one of the best hitters in baseball today. I know it probably pains people to admit that, but just look at this season & you have to admit that the guy can just flat-out hit. Just imagine if he did have Roberto Alomar, Vizquel, Lofton, etc. then his RBIs would really be high maybe around 140.

 

<b>McCovey</b> hit .270 lifetime, 1229 runs, 1555 RBI's and 1345 walks in 23 seasons. http://baseball1.com/database/results.php3?player_id=mccovwi01

<b>Foxx</b> hit .325 lifetime, 1751 runs, 1922 RBI's and 1452 walks in 21 seasons. http://baseball1.com/database/results.php3?player_id=foxxji01


<b>Bagwell</b> in only <b>10 seasons</b> has a .305 avg, 1073 runs, 1093 RBI's, 992 walks (through the 2000 season)
http://baseball1.com/database/results.php3?player_id=bagweje01

You do the math

 

I thought I'd check on this and you're not quite correct here.

Piazza's career OBP: 391
Piazza's career SLG: .577

Bagwell's career OBP: .415
Bagwell's career SLG: .554

So Bagwell's OBP is .024 higher and is SLG is 0.023 lower than Piazza's. Since OBP correlates a bit higher than SLG with run scoring Bagwell has actually been a bit of a better hitter. This doesn't even take into consideration that Bagwell has played for most of his career in the best pitcher's park in the NL. Piazza starting in LA, which also a pitcher's park, and I don't know what kind of park Shea is. But inclusion of park effects would only help Bagwell, even if just by a bit.

Oh yeah, Bagwell also has done this over 1300 more AB's. This is certainly not a trivial amount...

 

It was a bad trade, but in Larry Anderson's defense, he was incredibly hot going into that trade. He was throwing one pitch that nobody could touch. Nobody. And that's all he threw. When he got to Boston, it all went bye bye for some reason. But at the time I'd say he was one of the top 5 relievers despite not getting saves.

 

As to the list of players someone might take over Bags today. They are few and far between in my opinion. It is hard to judge a player on numbers alone, although Bagwell does stand out even there. How about wins, in a leadership sense. Of all the players mentioned, it is funny how except for the Braves, Bagwell is the only one who has been on a consistentally successful team in his career (the last 5 years or so). And to anyone who watches the Stros play, it is obvious Bagwell is the team leader, whereas calling Chipper Jones the Braves' team leader is ridiculous in my opinion.

Second, I think a lot more wieght needs to be put on factors such as defense, baserunning, and overall baseball smarts. Bagwell, in my opinion, is a GREAT defensive first baseman. It isnt as hard a position as some of the others, but I've seen Bagwell make plays on a regular basis that saves runs, and, sometimes games. He doesn't have as many steals this year as he did earlier in his career, but he rarely is thrown out because he isnt paying attention.

Finally, as to the traditional measures such as HR, RBI, WALKS, etc, as BobFinn points out, Bagwell stands out there as well. It is pretty obvious that if Bagwell continues to play at his clip for the next 5 years or so, with anothr 3-6 mediocre years following (although its doubtful he'll play that long) he will easily be in the top 3. He is just a VERY VERY good player.

The only drawback thus far is a lack of playoff production, and that will continue to hurt his image unless he cahges that just once, and leads to Stros to a WS and hopefully a championship.

It is not often us fans of Houston have a legitimate player to get behind and tout as one of the best ever. Hakeem is a no brainer. The fact that this is even an argument is a testament to Bagwell's abilities.

 

If health weren't an issue, I would take Pudge's last 3 years against anyone's, especially another catcher. He had a great year when he won the mvp, but last year he was absolutely on fire. Wasn't he hitting .360 and almost getting an rbi a game. Add that to the fact that he is the best defensive catcher of this era, I would take him first, no questions asked.

Lost in all this talk is that Bagwell is also one of the 5 best defensive 1st basemen playing right now.


BTW, is there a legitimate argument as to why Bonds is NOT the best player of our era? I don't like the guy, but he's a stud. A true 4 1/2 tool player over a 12 year career.

 

However, Piazza's batting average is .324 versus .303 for Bagwell, and Piazza RBIs and HRs are at a slightly higher per AB than Bagwell. I admit their hitting numbers are pretty close--though I think the nod would be to Piazza. When you consider Bagwell steals bases and scores more runs, you could say overall he is the better offensive player--but again not by much.

So it comes down to whether you want a terrific offensive and average-to-below average defensive catcher, or a great offensive and good defensive 1B to fill out your team. Tough call is to what is better for your line up, but I can see Bagwell's case over Piazza better now.

We have been talking about Bagwell's greatness relative to the best of the best today--the likes of Jr, Bonds, Piazza, A-Rod, Pudge, ext., this is no insult for any of the guys being compared even if they are on the short end of the comparison. I don't think saying he isn't going to rank with Gehrig, Ruth, Mays, Mantel, Aaron or Williams is an insult either. We are lucky to have among the greatest players and the best 1st baseman playing today in the Astros uniform, and further lucky that he is a fan-media-team friendly future HoF guy to boot (in contrast to say Barry).

 

Let's see Bob:

Foxx .325 hitter, .609 slug, .425 OBA and hit 534 HR.

Gehrig, .340, .632, .442 and 493 HR.

I'd say Bags would have to hit in the high 300s with a slugging % in the high 600s for about 8 more years to be in these guys class.
No shame in not reaching that level though.

 

Thats why I made no comparison of Bags to Gehrig. Gehrig was the most consistent first baseman to ever play. He will never be topped. However, Bags does have a chance of equaling, if not surpassing, some of Foxx's numbers.

Bagwell is certainly putting up numbers equal to some of the Greatest to ever play this game. We should marvel at and admire this GREAT player of our generation.

 

That was one reason why it was bad for the Sox. Another reason was that Andersen was a free agent at the end of that season and he had no desire to re-sign with Boston. So, the Red Sox essentially got him for 2 to 3 months.

 

You admit the possibility exists that Bagwell may be a better offensive player than Piazza (even further supported by the fact that he has done it longer and gets more walks) yet call Piazza a terrific offensive player while Bagwell is only great, contradicting yourself????

 

I don't think that's a contradiction if he's talking about relative to league average. In otherwords, the average first baseman is much better offensively than an average catcher. So Bagwell could be called mearly great while Piazza is terrific offensively even if Bagwell has slightly better numbers. However he still did answer for park effects and he called Piazza an "average to below average" catcher when all evidence (both anecdotal and statistical) point to him being one of the worst 5 catchers. Bagwell, meanwhile, is universally considered an above average defender.

Piazza does hit slightly more HR's per AB (which is reflected by his higher SLG) but doesn't walk nearly as much as reflected by his lower OBP. Since not making an out is the single most imporant skill for a batter I think Bagwell has to get the nod.

Again, you also have to consider that in basically two more seasons (actually slightly less since Piazza played a bit his first year which I'm not counting) Bagwell has 1300 more AB's. That's a lot of extra games per year, especially when you remember that Bagwell has walked much more lowering his AB's per game.

 

Very productive. Didn't he lead the 90's in rbis (as well as confrontations)? Alas, injuries caught up to him, so no, he isn't among the best ever.