Yeah, Timing I knew about Crawford, but even if they didnt have him this would be a very good deal for them. Also, btw, while I am disappointed in Richard Hidalgo, there's no way in the world I trade him for Paul Byrd. Sorry, but once again, the guy was great 3 yrs ago or so, had two sucky years, goes back to no pressure KC and does good. Call me skeptical, and he's not worth that cost.
How many games do you want this slow, fat guy to lose for us? I'm slow, I'm fat but I'm not playing in the majors. The guy is the textbook definition of defensive liability and refuses to do the things it takes to lose weight and get better. If Winn does not pan out, so what? You haven't really lost anything. Besides the meat and potatoes of the deal is Paul Wilson who has an ERA just over 4 in the AL where they basically play pinball. Wilson should be a solid 4th starter and will compliment the staff well.
I was just saying that it would be cool to get Winn, then get Daryle back in the contraction draft,so you would get Winn for basically nothing.
Refman, Paul Byrd is not a 3 yr player. He got passed around multiple organizations before Philly signed/traded for him as a flyer say 3 years ago and he had an all star first half that year. The next season he sucked, was traded a yr later to KC and just rebounded the latter part of last season. Paul Byrd is a Mlicki type of acquisition, and while I do support getting him, not at the expense of Hidalgo. That's just too steep a price to pay.
No patience for Ward? The guy's been in the majors for several years now, so he's not exactly as rough as some 1st year starters. If the guy's hit 20 HR's in a pinch-hitting role, then why can't he even hit 10 starting? Plus, he's not an OF...he needs to be a DH/1B. A move to the AL(yes, even to Tampa) would be better for him. I'd do that deal in a heartbeat...especially since we would get a decent SP back too. That's got to be better than starting Nelson Cruz and calling up prospects early like Munro and Saarloos. Hidalgo I am a little more hesitant to trade, because he still has power even if his average stays low...and he has a great OF arm.
Is there any chance in hell to get Carl Crawford? He's probably the D-Rays top prospect, and he made his MLB debut a few days ago. He's a true CF. I'd trade Ward, Saarloos, and whatever for Crawford.
I have no doubt DWard will eventually start hitting. What I don't think is that his hitting justifies his ridiculous lack of mobility. I'm tired of seeing balls just out of his reach that virtually ANY other outfielder in baseball gets to. He'll be a good hitter, but he's not one of a kind. He himself said that as a pinch-hitter, all he'd see were fastballs and he's having difficulty with the breaking stuff. Right now, he adds NOTHING to the team - he can't field (speed-wise), he can't run, he doesn't hit for power or average, and he doesn't walk.
I agree completely Major. What else can be added is that he will not have nearly the range of a Bagwell should they attempt to put him at 1B once Baggy retires. Ward also won't be digging balls out of the dirt to turn errors into outs.
I say we do it for Ward and Saarloos. Saarloos will never make it in the majors(Hopefully i'm wrong) because his fastball is not fast enough and he only has one good breaking pitch. If you do enough scouting on the guy, it's quite easy to hit him well. Randy Winn was an all-star only because he's on the D-rays, but I'd take him. Though, if we send Ward to TB and this IS and off-year for Ward, he will be an All-star next year...
If they do this deal, they will regret it. Ward is for real, he is just struggling through his 1st season as a starter. Plus we can't have an a all Right handed lineup.
Losing 1 left-handed batter will not be that big of a deal. Ward is a big problem on defense. Also, the fact that he can't bat at all against Lefty's is absurd.
Yes, but a couple of people earlier in the thread want to move Hidalgo to LF (or trade him) and let Lance play RF. Baaaad idea - his arm's barely adequite for center, guys would tag from 2nd & 3rd on him all day long.
Just for grins, how many fly balls a game does everyone here think Ward blows a game (read: a play that an average defensive LF could have made, but that Ward didn't)? Okay, on top of that, how many of these botched plays a game do you think result in runs scored by the other team? Now out of those, how many of those runs scored results in a loss for the Astros that we would have otherwise won without Ward's screwup? Now, taking all of that into account, does everyone really think that he would lose us more games than he wins with his offense if he were to start hitting like many (although obviously not some in this thread) believe he can? I think people see the errors and the slow speed in the outfield and blow it out of proportion, because plays like that stick in your memory more than other, competent plays. I have every bit of confidence in Ward's ability to get his swing together, and I have no problem with his suspect fielding if he does start producing.
Good points Raven. However, when he's not producing at the plate, or out on the field, he is a weakness, rather than an asset. If he could hit as many HR's as hotdogs he wolfs down per minute, then his lack of fielding becomes a non-factor.
One of my problems with Ward in the field is that when there's a man on at second and a hit straight to Ward that guy scores no matter what. Ward has no arm whatsoever and it's automatic that on any hit to left that guy from second is going to score. Considering that left is pretty short that seems to be a real issue especially when you see Astros having to stop on third all the time because of the left fielder getting the ball quickly.
Just for grins, how many fly balls a game does everyone here think Ward blows a game (read: a play that an average defensive LF could have made, but that Ward didn't)? Okay, on top of that, how many of these botched plays a game do you think result in runs scored by the other team? Now out of those, how many of those runs scored results in a loss for the Astros that we would have otherwise won without Ward's screwup? Now, taking all of that into account, does everyone really think that he would lose us more games than he wins with his offense if he were to start hitting like many (although obviously not some in this thread) believe he can? I think people see the errors and the slow speed in the outfield and blow it out of proportion, because plays like that stick in your memory more than other, competent plays. I have every bit of confidence in Ward's ability to get his swing together, and I have no problem with his suspect fielding if he does start producing. Couple of things -- (1) When looking at the defensive improvement, it's not just an upgrade in LF -- it's also an improvement in CF by getting a real center fielder. (2) I don't know that the correlation is always direct. It was last week when Ward couldn't reach a ball that any other player gets to, allowing 2 runs to score in a 3-2 loss. However, just as important, it affects the pitching. If pitchers trust the fielders more, that makes them pitch better. If they are trying to avoid people hitting to left field, they may pitch outside more or something along those lines. The actual benefits of good defense are hard to really look at statistically because it affects the stats of other players. (3) Offensively, same thing. You can't just say that the team will be better with Ward's hitting over his non-hitting. The options are Ward hitting vs. Randy Wynn hitting. Is that a huge upgrade? I don't think so. I have no doubt Ward will hit <I>better</I>, but that's not saying that much. He doesn't strike me as a potential super-star caliber player. (4) Ward's liability will ALWAYS be a liability - it's not something that can be learned or improved on. I would rather look for alternatives. If you can find players who can hit similarly with reasonable speed, they are a much better player. Offensively, Wynn adds average and speed and loses power. I think that's a reasonable trade-off. Then add that he improves the defense in CF and LF and I think you make the move. For an example of the defensive aspect of the game, consider the 1997 Astros. They were struggling and going in circles and decided to upgrade the defense. They switched out Ricky G. for Tim Bogar and I changed CFeres to Chuckie Carr. Both were not great offensively, but that team played MUCH better after that move. Many of the pitchers credited the better defense to their improvement because they stopped trying to do everything themselves. Whether it was psychological or not, the team improved.
1) This is true, but I still don't think the increase in defense we would enjoy by having a much better LFer and a slightly better CFer would be better than having player of Ward's potential. The guy has put up great numbers in the past, and I see no reason to believe he is suddenly incapable of doing so in the future. 2) This is a highly subjective point and I can't really argue one way or another how much a poor defensive left fielder really factors into a pitcher's mental plan when he is pitching. I'm sure it has some effect, but since major league pitchers are supposed to be mentally tough anyway, and since there is a catcher out there whose job it is to keep the pitcher on their gameplan, I doubt that having a a couple better defensive OFers really has that great of an effect. 3) Winn hitting versus Ward hitting is a tough call. Winn is having a good season, average wise. Ward is having a pretty poor season in just about every category, but he was touted as a great power guy for a while. In this case, since Winn doesn't seem to have outstanding plate discipline (although he is definitely not a hacker), I take the power over the average. Winn's breakout season right now is potentially just as flukey as Ward's poor season. I don't know much about Winn, so maybe he was a top prospect in their system, and is projected to be great...but I DO know that Ward was projected to be great, so I would prefer to stick with him. 4) I disagree that Ward's liability will always liability. He certainly will never be a gold glover, but he has made great strides this season towards making himself a better outfielder. Assuming a continued devotion to doing what it takes to stay in the batting lineup day by day, I think he will continue to get better defensively, and I can envision him becoming at least an average defender in time.
