This is starting to get real ugly, and it is one of those games which is not attributed to the players sucking, but the manager sucking. This is entirely 1M's fault. HORRIBLE MANAGERIAL DECISIONS
What really boggles my mind is that Gerry Hunsicker either doesn't realize that his manager is a dinosaur, likes it, or doesn't care. Even the new "traditional-type" managers have bought into the idea that you pitch your best strikeout guy in the type of situation we just had. You don't have to be a stat freak to know that Brad Lidge is preferable to Dan Miceli in that situation. You don't need to be a genius to know that the comparative "advantage" of Lidge is heightened in a 2 base runner situation. He's been the exact same way at every stop. Good for the club house, terrible decision-maker. Jimy doesn't get it. Screw him. Give him a pink slip tomorrow. The idiocy must end!
I don't think you can call out Jimy too hard. I am sure that they are still keeping an eye on Pettite's pitch count, although I do think you try to give him one more inning. Youre just not going to use Lidge and Dotel in these situations. Id rather have them for the 8th and 9th. If not, they you have Miceli or Backe trying to hold a lead in the late innings *cringe* Once again though, I take issue with our hitting. TVP is a journeyman and while he may be having a decent year, we are suppose to have the type of hitters who take care of pitchers like this. That, and Lamb's error. Things might have been ALOT different had Pettite gone into the 6th with a 4-0 lead instead of 4-2. That error made Pettie throw 20 extra pitches in the opening inning.
Then you're insane. The relative difference between Lidge and Miceli is less damaging with no runners on in, say, the 8th inning, than with 2 runners on in the 6th. The benefits of a strikeout are more pronounced. The benefits of a weakly hit ball are more pronounced. There are 27 outs in a game. You use your better relievers later in the game because you can better calculate whether they'll be particularly important outs. When you have a 4-2 lead, 2 runners are on, with 1 out... you already know outs are crucial. With no runners on, 2 innings later, the individual at-bats and outs become somewhat less important. This isn't rocket science. In fact, it's been one of the relatively few sabermetrically suggested ideas that's gained popularity with "traditional" baseball people. Only complete dinosaurs like Williams don't get it. The 6th inning... the 8th inning... the runs against count just the same.
Haven, IMO, its just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Say you bring in Lidge and get out of the inning, only to have the exact same situation in the 8th or 9th. Then, no Lidge. The theory, IMO, would be that you bring your lesser releivers in the middle innings because you have 3 or 4 more innings to let your bats make up for their mistakes. In the later innings, the bats have less chances, so you bring in your better relievers. Either way though, Jimy gets screwed. If he brought Lidge in and got out of the inning, and then had to use Miceli or Backe to setup Dotel, and they give up the lead, then there is no doubt wed all critize the move of bringing in Lidge so early.
No. The problem, is that you ignore the contextual development of a game. Before the inning started, was there a probability that the Reds would get a runner on 3rd and 2nd against even a mediocre reliever? No. But once they did, it becomes statistically beneficial to bring in Lidge. Because the odds are still that they won't do it in the 8th. Every circumstance is not equal. Games develop, and certain outs gain more importance as the games progresses. Hell, look at the logically necessary implication of your argument. By your argument, you might as well pitch Dotel or Lidge in the 1st inning as the 9th. But wait, you say. I'm the one who wants to pitch them only late in the game. But the problem is, that position assumes my logic which you subsequently reject. "Saving" a good reliever for a later inning is a good decision only insofar as it ensures that you won't "waste" said reliever in a 15-4 game. That's pointless, and doesn't maxmize your inning usage of your best players. However, if you knew before the game, that everything would be statistically evenly allocated, it wouldn't matter if you threw Lidge in the 1st or 8th. That's not the way baseball works. Context matters. And contextually in this situation, throwing him in the 6th would have been the correct move. This is just sort of a fact, I think. You and Jimy are one of the few who don't get it. I could live with a manager who's "behind the times." I can't handle Jimy, who's ****ing prehistoric.
1. Their bullpen was always due for a correction. They were pitching above their heads early in the season. They were always going to level off - unfortunately, they haven't leveled off so much as crashed. They really need another arm, badly. 2. Theyr'e not hitting homers. Odd with this line-up - but when you're not having any luck scratching out a run, a bomb out of nowhere's quite useful. 3. They've been a bit unlucky lately. 4. Jimy Williams is one of the worst decision-makers in MLB. Whether his ability to handle a club house is worth it, I leave it for you to determine. But he's usually out-maneuvered in-game.
I gotta agree here- You got basically one guy in the pen who's a strikeout guy, and you really need a strikeout- bring him in. Miceli eats innings, but he's not a get-you-out-of-a-jam type guy.. Not like Lidge, anyway. But calm down, dude. No need to be so personal towards codell here. To change the subject, is it as surprising to you guys as it is to me that the NL Central is the best division in baseball (as far as W-L record) at this point in the season?
So we should throw him no matter what even if his arm is falling off. He has pitched in 21 of 40 games. the way it is going Lidge is on pace to make around 88 appearances. No way he does that. Dotel is on pace to throw in 80. If you use them like Haven wants which is any time you need to get a guy out you are going to have 2 of the best strikeout men in the MLB on the DL before August is over. But yeah it is May and we really need to win no matter what the consequences are later in the season. What Jimy is doing is finding out who in the bullpen,besides Dotel and Lidge, is going to get guys out. If they don't start doing it soon then they will not be doing it at all and someone else will. BUt I am probably wasting my time because there are people on this board that will do nothing but bash Jimy Williams. If the Astros went 161-1 and swept everyone in the playoffs they would b**** because Jimy lost one game. They feed on the negative and it seems like they hope the Astros fail just so they can complain about something.
In regards to getting another arm in the bullpen, why not try giving Scott Elarton another chance? I remember he was pretty effective when he came out of the bullpen. While he no longer has the arm to start, maybe his niche` could be in the bullpen. IMO its worth it to give him a shot.
Ok, I see what you're saying here. And it makes sense. However, the discussion was really about using him in the 6th vs using him in the 8th, not about using him vs not using him. Obviously, if you were planning on sitting him out, there's no need to argue when to bring him in. I have a hard time believing that, if Miceli had kept the Astros within a run, Jimy would have left Lidge on the shelf come the 8th inning. But we'll never know.
The thing that haven seems to ignore is that Miceli is a damn good strikeout pitcher himself. There isn't a manager in baseball that would have brought the setup guy in during the 6th inning in this situation - not one. From the Chronicle: <I>Astros relievers Brad Lidge, Octavio Dotel and Dan Miceli entered Friday ranked first, second and third, respectively, in the majors in strikeouts by relievers.</I> Is Lidge a better strikeout guy? Sure. But the goal in the 6th inning isn't necessarily to get a strikeout - it's to minimize the damage and get out of the inning ASAP. You need the strikeout guy if you're in a situation where you absolutely cannot allow a runner to score - that's why Lidge is going to be saved until the 8th or 9th inning. Up by 2 in the 6th, with our bullpen, you're perfectly content to trade an out for a run, and then just get out of the inning up 4-3. Like codell said, if you're going to bring Lidge in everytime you have men on with less than 2 out, his arm is going to fall off in July. Besides which, there's no reason Lidge would have even been warming up at that point. You weren't predicting that you'd have men on 2nd and 3rd, so unless you expect Lidge to be warmed up at all times, there's no way Lidge can come in as soon as a double is hit. You'd have to wait a few batters while he warms up - at which point its too late anyway.
better start to stand it lol sigh...... bullpen blew another good game by a starter damn shame andy threw so many pitches thru 5
Yeah, I am not too sure about the reliability of our bullpen this season. i love having Lidge in there. i hope dotel can get rid of his jitters and be the closer we need him to be.
I think you're wrong. I don't always watch the ESPN games, but I do often enough to have seen it. Not often, but it's not even rare for the closer to enter the game in the 7th for some teams, much less the set up man. From the Chronicle: Miceli is pitching far above his head. He's not nearly the pitcher that he's been so far this year. But a single hit means 2 runs, in most cases. Miceli just isn't that good of a pitcher, even if he has played well this year. I expect better from you, Major. Lidge was available today. The out-importance was greater in the 6th today. Sorry. You pitch your best pitchers at the most highly valued outs. I would have believed this once... but of late, I've seen more and more relievers come in quickly.
Miceli is pitching far above his head. He's not nearly the pitcher that he's been so far this year. So you say - but that's purely opinion. This year, Miceli has been just as good as Lidge. Last year, Miceli was better than Lidge for us in the period we had him. And better than Lidge over the course of the season, even if you include his horrid period in Colorado last year. So over the entire period Lidge has been with the Astros, Miceli has outperformed him (up until yesterday, I guess). But a single hit means 2 runs, in most cases. Miceli just isn't that good of a pitcher, even if he has played well this year. But we're not looking at a single hit - you were talking strikeout. Miceli and Lidge are pretty equal at getting "outs', although they do it by different means to some extent. If you want an out, you bring in Miceli and save the strikeout guy until you truly need a strikeout - which is when you can't afford to give up a single run (generally the case in the 8th and 9th innings). I expect better from you, Major. Lidge was available today. The out-importance was greater in the 6th today. Sorry. You pitch your best pitchers at the most highly valued outs. You pitch your most valued pitchers in the most highly valued outs - I agree. I don't agree that you put in Lidge when you have 2 men on in the 6th with a 2 run lead, when you have a pretty good 2nd option. If you were to keep making that call, you'd be bringing in Lidge and/or Dotel early in games all the time. I would have believed this once... but of late, I've seen more and more relievers come in quickly. Doesn't mean its right. There's no way in hell Lidge was or should have been warming up at the beginning of the 6th. Nor would there have been any reason after the first single. And you don't bring in a pitcher completely cold after the double - especially one that's used to pitching the 8th inning and would likely not even really have started getting loose - so how do you bring in Lidge, even if you want to?
I was thinking today would be a guaranteed win. And the day before that. And the day before that. What are they putting in our pitchers' water?
