An Appeal For Substance

I love many things about this place, and the ability to discuss, argue, and even rant about issues like politics, religion, history etc. is high among them. But this experience has been marred by being subject and witness and in some ways even party to several barrages of personal attacks which have nothing to do with the arguments at hand. Insults never win arguments, and those who think they do are more interested in volume than veracity. This has happened on both sides of the fence on almost any issue, and I myself have responded in kind to recent attacks, and I regret it.


So here is my suggestion...let's do away with the whole aspect of insulting posters, with terms like 'traitor', 'lunatic', 'coward', 'idiot', etc. Let's all agree that when a poster resorts to that kind of childishness, he does so as an admission of defeat with regards to winning the argument on merit. Use your knowledge, intelligence, and communication skills to win debates, or bow out. I myself look forward to having only to respond to intelligent dialogue, and I'm sure that many of you agree with me. Yeah, emotions get involved; these are important issues. But that doesn't excuse or even mean that personal attacks need to follow.

If you are going to say someone is a 'liar', be prepared to back it up with more than personal opinion. Otherwise it's just another insult which accomplishes nothing.


Now there are two more steps if we are going to do this. First, we need to overcome the attitude some have that insincere games designed to do nothing more than provoke a response are worthy and/or entertaining. Some seem to think so, I do not, but the greater point is that that attitude really lowers the bar, and we have seen the kind of crap which follows. The second step is that we need to regulate the behaviour within idealogical groups: liberals need to point out when other liberals have crossed the line, and vice versa. Reprimands from posters who disagree with you often take the form of, or are understandably seen as just another attack, and the moderators have shown that they won't really get involved, nor should they have to. If we maintain the attitude that the purpose is intelligent debate, and that personal insults serve no purpose, but are in fact an admission of defeat, and we do so across the board irrespective of whether the poster in question agrees with you or not, then we will go a long way to making this a better place for debate for everyone.


Now that does not mean to say that nothing controversial can be stated: If you feel that Hillary=Hitler, or that blacks commit more crimes than whites, that's a position. It may seem ridiculous to some, but the person making the statement has the right to support his position with intelligent argument, or be found wanting in that regard. But while it has personal implications to some, it is not a direct insult or personal attack. The not getting personal needs to go both ways; not taking general positions personally. If you disagree, argue the point on merit, or if it's lack of substance is self-evident, allow the poster to hang himself with his own words. But to assume a personal attack and therefore excuse responding with personal insults serves no purpose.


Again, the point of this isn't to discourage meaningful debate on important, controversial issues, but on the contrary, to raise the standard so that that is what we have instead of mud-slinging contests.


Let's all try and get this forum to a place where substantive, intelligent debate is the standard, and insults and personal attacks from either side are seen by all of us as inappropriate and pointless. Please respond if you agree or disagree. This can't happen without support and discussion. If you think I should just mind my own affairs, say so. If you agree with me in principle, but have disagreement in terms of practice, speak up. And if you agree with me down the line, and will join me in trying to accomplish this, please tell me and others. I think we all need to hear what everyone's priorities are.


I also want to point out that this should not be taken as an attack on any posters in particular. I feel that so many of us have slipped in this regard from time to time that few of us are in a postion to throw stones while claiming completely clean hands. Even if all we have done is laugh at others insulting a poster that we don't like or disagree with, we have contributed by encouraging said behaviour.




PEACE


JAG

 

I can never decide if I find life's little constancies a reassurance of the stability of life, or a reminder of the inexorable nature of that which will remain long after we are gone. Anyone read Sandberg's A Prelude on Playthings of The Wind?

 

Yeah, I think that most recognize that this is not a call for puritanism, or Victorian reserve, merely an avoidance of those elements which get in the way of intelligent debate rather than contribute to it.

 

No, by all means disagree. This is the place for it. Just do so with substance rather than sandbox name calling.

 

That had occured to me upon re-reading it myself. Maybe we could combine the two ideas. Anyways, you in?

 

Understood.

 

Not mine to bargain with, sadly. But, seriously john, are you in agreement with what I'm suggesting about this? Honest question.