Ingersoll lived in the 19th Century. Josephus, a Jewish historian, lived a bit closer to Christ's time. He talks about Jesus twice. Once is called Testimonium Somethingorother and states very definitively the existence of Jesus. But some question it. He wrote another bit about Jesus, however, that is not questioned, as I understand it. He talks about the Sanhedrin being called together to hear charges against James, the brother of Jesus, "the so-called Christ." Essentially this is an account of the trial against James, Jesus' brother. Josephus does not suggest that Jesus never existed. In fact, he refers to him by name and calls him James' brother. The Roman historian Tacitus wrote that Christians were people who followed this guy named Jesus who put to death during Tiberius' reign under Pontius Pilate. Thallus wrote in about 55 AD that there was a guy named Jesus who was crucified. There are also a couple of independent references by Justin Martyr and Tertullian that evidence that Pilate, himself, wrote a report about Jesus, which detailed both the crucifixion and miracle accounts. Accorrding to Tetullian, Emperor Tiberias acted on Pilate's report and made it unlawful to persecute followers of Christ. Obviously, that didn't last long. Unfortunately, we don't have a copy of this account. Not surprising, frankly, since by 70 AD, Jerusalem is left in ruins by the Romans. More importantly, Jesus' life and death is accounted for in the Talmud, the recorded oral history of the Jewish faith. This was written LONG before the NT was ever put together by people who would have the very most to gain by suggesting his life never happened...from a "competing" and hostile faith. Though in the early years, Christians met in the synagogue, they were very shortly kicked out and considered no longer to be Jews. The Talmud account says Jesus was put to death by the Romans, though he was originally condemned by the Jews. That because he was crucified it showed the Romans got involved...he would have been stoned had it been the Jews who actually killed him, according to this report. The report claims he was killed when he was about 33 years old. Again, the authors of the Talmud would have had nothing to gain by documenting all this. I don't believe we can entirely discount the NT as historical documents, either...particularly the letters of Paul. At the very least, they itemize what was believed by men and women who would have been contemporaries of Christ. I'm sorry, but their views on it are far more relevant to me than Ingersoll's in the 19th century...as are the other accounts I've mentioned. Their very statements that "this happened" or "that happened" would have been easily challenged by others who were actually there. And then these men are trotted off to persecution and death for what they know to be a lie? I'm sorry, I don't see it. One can put up all the other mythos of ancient religions to draw comparisons. With some, there comparisons are clear. But the differences are not pointed out. Mithra, for example, was a god of war. But it's usually done very easily and lazily. It's easy to say, "God X had the very same traits as Jesus." Much harder to point to archaeology or myth stories that actually points to that being true. The resurrection story was certainly common...and it's interesting to me that the early church doesn't focus on it for evangelism purposes...because it would not have been remarkable to others who knew first century religions. Instead they live in a radical community that calls for justice...that serves the world more than it serves itself. This gets lost over time as it begins to become a religion....but a remnant has remained.
I'm really confused on this one... Can you think of 1 account out of the hundreds of prophecies of the Messiah listed in the Bible that Jesus didn't fulfill? In case you are still looking, google the words - jesus messiah prophecies fulfilled - for a list of the ones He did fulfill and tell me again how the Bible backs you up on this one? Or you can google - jesus messiah prophecies not fulfilled- and the first one in your list is this one... http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm
Actually, I'm not sure if Jesus fulfilled any of the prophecies of the Bible. I'm gunna start a new thread about it so it can get the discussion it deserves. MadMax- You're right. I was being a dick. But I will redeem myself in a new thread.
Actually... I'm back down to Rookie so I can't start a new thread... so here it goes: Jesus could not be the Jewish Messiah because he does not fulfill the requirements set forth in the Bible. First of all, the idea of "THE Messiah" is not a central one in the Hebrew Bible. It is a prophecy of a future king who will reign in a time of world peace and the consolodation of Jews in Israel (more on this later). Geneological requirement: the messiah must be from the tribe of Judah and have a blood line traced to David through Solomon. Jesus is not part of any male blood line because he was born to a virgin mother. Also, even if you accept the false notion that Joseph passed on his blood line through adoption of Jesus, one part of Joseph's geneology precluded his descendants from ever taking the throne of David (which the Messiah must do). Simple enough, right? The Elijah requirement: the Bible says that the coming of the Messiah will be preceeded by a visit by Elijah. Elijah never came, nor did he do what was fortold (something about returning sons' hearts to their fathers). The reign of the messiah requirements: the Messiah is supposed to rule in a time where there is world peace, where Jews are all returned to Israel, where all are to recognize the one true God, where the Temple is rebuilt, etc. None of these things happened, so Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I think that's a good start. Have at it.
let's start with this for a "good start"...post the OT scripture to back up your assertions of what the Messiah is/was to be.
I don't think anyone can honestly say that, but thanks for the thought. I hope you find what you're looking for. Personally, I don't believe you have to go to some kind of group event to believe in what you believe. But I dont think going to them defines who you are or what you believe. Find whatever it is that you want to find, and use all the opportunities you have to find them... one of them being church.
I've also heard though that the Messiah is supposed to come in a time of trouble for Jews and that there was a false Messiah who appeared to Russian Jews during a time of some very bad massacres by the Cossacks. My understanding, which I will admit is very limited, is that the Messiah was to come in a time of trouble and bring about the things you describe. In regard to what you say as requirements of the Messiah at the time of Jesus several of the requirements were fulfilled. The World, as it was known to the people living in Judea then, was at relative peace under Roman rule, the Temple was standing after having been rebuilt, and the Jews were in Israel. The only requirement that doesn't seem fulfilled there is that much of the known world was still practicing polytheism but it seems to me one of the roles of the Messiah would be to spread Judaic belief in one God.
Sishir, I think no matter how peaceful things are, when you're being ruled by another country and having to pay taxes to "pagans", I can't imagine how good you would feel about the situation. I mean, we're pretty much ruled by the Bush administration and think how angry we get at him sometimes, and he's suposed to be an American. Just imagine if we had to pay taxes and obey Al Qaeda in exchange for peace.
I understand that but I'm also guessing that scriptural proof of the Messiah is open to some interpretation. Without seeing the exact scriptural text there all I see it saying is the world is at peace. It doesn't say how that peace came about.
for me, I just didn't think that whatever peace there was, the Jewish people did not have it at that time. Maybe there was no wars, but there was definetely extreme anger at the Roman Empire, and the feeling of oppression combined with fear was probably worse than the feeling of just fear itself (if there was fighting). I'm sure there are countless Jewish scholars who will say Jesus did not complete all the requirements for him to be the Messiah, so I'm not going to say it's not open to interpretation (since obviously people are interpreting it differently than I'd like ), but the time period was not what I'd consider a peaceful one for the Jews.
pray bro, just pray, God will show you what He wants from you do you know the story of the prodigal son? one of the greatest things in life is when a man or woman comes back to God
