I am very reluctant to invoke the word 'abortion' again on this bbs, because people might start talking about it again. But, I have a question to ask, and the invocation is unavoidable, even though that isn't the thrust of the question. What I want to know is what pro-choice people think of the practice of adoption. The question is: Do you find the alternative of giving a baby up for adoption less desireable than aborting the baby outright? And, if so, why? Sincerely, sincerely, I don't want to start another abortion argument. I really just want to educate myself on the above subject since I am genuinely ignorant of what a pro-choice position might be. In that spirit, I'll answer questions, but will offer no counter-arguments. ------------------ RealGM Gafford Art Artisan Cakes
abortion is bad, mkay! Juan, I think you need to address this question to more of a feminine place, as Im sure most of these guys here do not have babies. The only reason why I can see them having abortions is because they do not want to go throught the long months of suffering and/or they are ashamed of being pregant(whatever the reasons are; out of wedlock, don't want parents/boyfriend to know, ect) There maybe more, but like I said, im not a woman, so I can't really answer this question. ------------------ Nice guys finish last ... and im surely not going to finish last!
Why would us guys care one way or the other about abortion? We can leave whenever we want! ------------------ (===)
Achebe, You are getting out of control with your sig...but where is the nose? JV, This is not representing my view, but this may help a little: 1. If a person does not believe a fetus is a baby (for scientific, religious, astrological, whatever reasons), then you must immediately start with the premise of one side is not murder in that person's eyes. Maybe like removing an organ or something -- painful and will have lasting ramifications, but not murder. 2. that person could then weigh that versus going through the pregnancy, giving birth, bringing life and doing the adoption thing. Being a ward of the state sucks, no doubt about that. Kids put up for adoption can often go until 18 with no home, or multiple, failed homes. It takes little imagination to see what could go from there. Additionally, there is much greater supply than demand. Just more overpopulation. Given these circumdstances I could see how someone would prefer abortion to adoption. Of course, if one feels it is murder...a potentially miserable life may seem preferable to not having one at all. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
i don't think the 2 are mutually exclusive. rosie o'donnell is pro-choice but she also has an adoption program that she promotes on her show. what i want to know is how many adopted children do the leaders of the pro-life movement have. ------------------
How is that relevant? How many abortions has Rosie O'donnell had? She'd have to have had one to support abortion, right? Do you have to be gay to support gay rights? Do you have to be black to support affirmative action? Apparently you have to adopt in order to support adoption--that is if you're anti-abortion. ------------------ "There's a lot of things you can say about playing with Dream, but I get to say, `I played with the Dream.' That speaks for itself." --Walt Williams "****!" --Kenny Thomas
funny on the morning show on KRBE the women jumped down the throat of another woman who thought a man should have a choice too. Pro Choice is only for 1 side [women] three people involved . ..1 gets a choice [MAN, Woman and child] funnier still was every reason they gave [in their Pro Life Like zealous self righteous tones were the EXACT same reason Pro lifers give for not allowing abortions. . . go figure] BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND the problem is this instead of b****ing about adoption could we try something radical like .. i dunno FIX THE F*CKING SYSTEM I beleive Adoption is the best option but the adoption system is f*cked up by most accounts I see . . . . We need to streamline it but keep some of the safety prodicals in place. . . It won't be easy but d*mmit I'm tired of the easy quick fix attempts we been trying [don't want the baby . . . . abortion Don't want the wieght . .we can cut that out too (Liposuction)] When we talk about not having any solutions what we as americans usually mean is that there is no easy solution. I could go on . . but I'll stop for now Rocket River ------------------
Remember, however, that most women who seek abortions are poor and a big percentage are not white. Jeff Here are some stats from 1997 (I could not find any later than that, but I suspect it remains a fairly representative sample): ------------------------- 9. Most women who have abortions are white, but women of color are much more likely to abort their pregnancies. 56% of women who had abortions were white (including Hispanic). The abortion rate for black women was 32 abortions per 1,000 women, 2.9 times the rate for white women (11 per 1,000 women). The abortion ratio for black women was 543 abortions per 1,000 live births, 2.8 times the ratio for white women (194 per 1,000 live births). The abortion rate per 1,000 Hispanic women (20 per 1,000 women) was greater than the rate per 1,000 non-Hispanic women (14 per 1,000 women). ---------------------- It looks like the stats both support and refute your statement depending on how you look at it. The URL is: http://prochoice.about.com/newsissues/prochoice/library/blabsurv1997p2.htm ------------------
Adoption can be a great alternative for those women who wish to follow that route. It can be an emotionally trying course of action (carrying a baby to term and then giving it away would be very difficult, I would imagine), but if the woman feels it is the right solution for her, I'm all for it. I've known many people who were adopted (including my own father), and they all turned out well. And I've known couples who have adopted children (including a family that adopted a couple of "special needs" kids), and they all were very thankful that they were able to adopt. I would be willing to adopt a child if the state would let me (even though I already have two kids from regular methods). And I'd certainly be willing to adopt outside my race or who was a little older (I've often heard that it's hard to place kids who aren't babies). ------------------ Houston Sports Board Help Finance My Movie - Buy A T-Shirt
In the case of an un-wanted pregnancy, would it better to carry the fetus to term (as opposed to having an abortion) and giving the baby up for adoption? There's less emotional attachment with an in-sentient fetus than a new-born baby, but the mother should have the choice to terminate the pregnancy or carry through to labor. I suppose you can be pro-choice and pro-adoption, but when you find yourself in that situation, it's a tough decision to make. ------------------ Not only have the Bryce Drew and Jason Williams bashers crossed the line, but they've sprinted a couple of miles beyond it.
This is a useless note, why include it? If your population is 50% one color, does it really surprise you they would dominate? Here is simple method to determine if a the baby fetus has a say so in abortion vs. adoption: POLL When you were a fetus, would you: (A) Want to be aborted -or- (B) Want to be adopted ------------------ Nice guys finish last ... and im surely not going to finish last! [This message has been edited by Space Ghost (edited March 15, 2001).]
When I was a fetus, I wanted to be a firetruck! Actually, I have no recollection, but can probably guess that I just wanted to swim. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
Doing their part is not getting abortions. Of course they're doing their part. If I say it's wrong to deal drugs, am I not doing my part if I don't give somebody a job so they don't feel like they have to deal drugs? I would hope not. Actually, it's like someone who is against abortions not getting one himself, and telling others not to either. ------------------ "There's a lot of things you can say about playing with Dream, but I get to say, `I played with the Dream.' That speaks for itself." --Walt Williams "****!" --Kenny Thomas
This may be a little off topic but did anyone see the 60 Minutes show about this lady who has an organization that pays drug addicted women to get steralized? Apparently she's adopted about 4 children abandoned by drug addicted mothers and she gets donations from around the country to fund her organization. She pays them $200 to get steralized and I think they said 400 women have taken part so far. Pretty crazy if you ask me but certainly effective. ------------------ Hofstra 2001 NCAA Champs - BELIEVE!
Sorry outlaw, but the one day that thefreak's analogies actually work, I have to give him credit. ------------------ (===)
it's relevant. these people are telling everyone that adoption is the solution to unwanted pregnancies. That's a fallacy anyway. Many anti-abortion folks say the solution to unwanted pregnancies is to not get pregnant. There are also a whole lot of people who have an unplanned pregnancy and end up having and keeping their babies. (Me and my former wife, for example. We got pregnant in high school and didn't particularly want to become parents at 17, but we did. And now that baby is a happy, healthy 12 year-old with parents who love him very much. So, even though the pregnancy was "unwanted", the child ended up being very wanted. It wasn't simply a choice between adoption and abortion). Personally, I think the adoption process needs to be streamlined a little bit. I realize that it is important that adoptive parents be vetted, but the process is often needlessly long and drawn out. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Help Finance My Movie - Buy A T-Shirt
First, can I choose who adopts me? If I could that would make a big difference. Second, can I choose if I am healthy or not? Another biggie. Finally, since I believe in reincarnation, abortion or adoption would make little difference to me. I'd be back soon enough anyway. Maybe being born or not is a choice we make before we are born. Maybe abortion is a choice we conciously make. My point is that my beliefs differ so greatly from yours, Space, that I cannot really even give you a straight answer. I believe we choose our birth and life to learn things. This life is one big lesson. If we don't get it this time, we come back for another go round. It's like a long essay test that requires lifetimes to get right and you have to get it ALL right but for yourself, not for someone or something. So, abortion or adoption, for me as a fetus, would be irrelavent. ------------------ The Walrus was Paul. [This message has been edited by Jeff (edited March 15, 2001).]
I hate all you people, by the way. After reading this thread (and participating), I made the mistake of going to a website that lists children who are waiting for adoption. And now I feel bad that I can't adopt them all. Quit bringing up subjects that make me feel bad. I notice that nearly all of the kids listed on this particular website have some sort of psychological disorder listed, most of which I've never even heard of (and my mother is a psychologist, so I've heard more than the average guy, I'd bet). I'd never heard of "Oppositional Defiant Disorder", for example. I would expect that being a kid waiting for adoption would create a lot of those types of problems (not to mention what some of these kids went through in their homes before they became wards of the state). I just hate the fact that they've got all these kids medicated. Call me old fashioned, but I still don't think drugs are the answer to most emotional problems. Drugs, at best, merely delay the problems. It takes real therapy to actually solve the problems. Drugs should be saved for the extreme cases where no other solution is really viable. It seems like we're too quick to run to the prescription pad these days. (For example, I went to a therapist because I had been feeling down about my divorce and related things. What I really needed was to just talk it out. After less than 30 minutes of talking, the therapist wanted to prescribe Prozac for me and referred me to an MD. I declined. There was no way my temporary depression brought about by a specific, passing incident was worthy of medication). I was also struck at how old a lot of these kids were. You don't really think about there being 15, 16 and 17 year-old kids waiting to be adopted. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Help Finance My Movie - Buy A T-Shirt
Mprpaige, sorry to make you feel bad. But, I am appreciating all the feedback so far. It has been interesting reading. ------------------ RealGM Gafford Art Artisan Cakes
