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A Call to Moderates

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by thumbs, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    With limited exceptions , I choose not to tell people how I voted even though I do trend toward moderates in the Republican Party.

    IMO, this election was Mr. Kerry's to lose -- and he did. From my viewpoint, Mr. Kerry should have provided the nation with a vision for governing. Similarly, he should have ignored responding to negative criticism while, at the same time, eschewed tossing mud himself. The American people really wanted to take the higher road, and neither candidate gave them that choice.

    Selecting new Supreme Court justices may have played a bigger role in people falling on Mr. Bush's side of the fence than anyone suspects. With the assault on marriage and religion (credit the ACLU) pushing moderates into the conservative camp, thousands of "average" citizens over-reacted to the perceived trend regarding the judiciary's creation, rather than interpretation, of law.

    Now I do not care to debate the rightness or wrongness of that "average" citizen's opinion, but I am saying that IMO it was a driving force.

    Personally, I am considering "retiring" to work exclusively on a friend's Congressional campaign for 2006. His will be a moderate voice that I hope will replace a radical rant.

    In Election 2004 I was both pleased and dismayed by Senate results. Tom Daschle can retire to South Dakota, but the GOP added a nut from Oklahoma and re-elected Jim Bunning, a great pitcher who needed to be tossed out.

    On the other hand, Illinois is sending new hope (Obama) to the Senate. I must investigate him further, but judging from initial observations, I think he can and will go on to our highest office, perhaps even in 2008.

    My greatest dread is that 2008 will pit a highly divisive candidate like Mrs. Clinton against a similarly divisive candidate like Mr. Frist or some other proponent of the Far Right. The nation will fracture.

    I hope at least one of the major parties selects a candidate who is smart enough to share a vision for the future -- not just pie in the sky. Not since John F. Kennedy has a president given us a vision of what America could be and what Americans could accomplish. Mr. Reagan came close, but even he did not set a tone as lofty as Mr. Kennedy's dreams.

    I pity the sub-40 age group who have never listened to live JFK speeches that moved people to tears of resolve, hope and pride. True, they can listen to them now, but their reference points are vastly different. They cannot grasp the fears and problems of that age.

    In short (I know, too late), let's start working now to move toward the center where left of center Americans and right of center Americans need not fear or hate one another.
     
    #1 thumbs, Nov 3, 2004
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2004
  2. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    I disagree.

    George W. Bush was the incumbent.

    It was his election to lose, and he didn't.
     
  3. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    Is that glass half full or half empty?:)

    The liberal segment (almost half) was against Mr. Bush, and the moderate conservative segment (10 to 25%) was disenchanted to say the least. Therefore, that is why I conclude it was Mr. Kerry's race to lose.
     
  4. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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    Interesting post. Here’s a question for you that I think falls under the heading of this post. What changes need to be made to your political system to allow the moderate voice to come forward? I agree with you that the leadership, not just the leaders, of the two parties is not representative of the American public. That’s a serious problem and a threat to your very democracy I suggest. What changes need to be made so that your parties and governments can be made to much better represent the positions and attitudes of the American public?
     
  5. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    I wish I were bright enough to provide clear, concise answers to each of those questions. Nevertheless, I shall try.

    First, we need to identify and oust the extreme idealogues, although I have no idea where the "line" is drawn between the "idea" and the "logue." But generally speaking, these are the lawmakers who see that they are absolutely right and everybody else is absolutely wrong (see Tom DeLay, Nancy Pelosi). We need to elect representatives who understand the principles of compromise, but not compromised principles.

    The changes will come when the electorate itself changes. For example, we want and need affordable, accessible health care, but we want someone else to pay for it. We the electorate want to be left alone by government, but we scream when we don't get services.

    So, to achieve representative government that can reflect the positions and attitudes of the American public, the American public itself must learn and practice toleration and moderation in their own neighborhoods. Bring on the community-encompassing block party and break out the barbecue.;)
     
    #5 thumbs, Nov 3, 2004
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2004
  6. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    Damn! I just listened to Mr. Kerry's concession speech. It was strong and moving and sincere and hopeful. Had he given speeches like that throughout his campaign, rather than being bogged down in the mud-slinging, he would have won.
     
  7. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    The problem with moving to center is that the Republicans are dragging the center as far right as possible.
     
  8. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    I agree somewhat with your observation. Defining left, right and center actually lies at the root of the problem. Looking at this another way, one side represents the "haves" and the other represents the "have nots." The center is always somewhere halfway between, regardless of which way one side drags it.
     
  9. SirCharlesFan

    SirCharlesFan Member

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    People said the same thing about Gore in 2000. Maybe it's something about the raw emotion that a candidate shows when they realize that their dreams won't come true.
     
  10. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Thumbs;

    An interesting analysis but the one thing I disagree with you on is in regards to social issues forcing moderates into the Republican camp. I've been working with the Independence party here in MN that got Jesse Ventura elected to build a moderate party. Generally the people here are fed up with divisive social issues being used to drive support. From talking to members of the party who supported Bush their main issue was security and they weighed that heavier than their repugnance in regard to the social side of things.

    IMO a successful moderate movement will be a fiscally conservative but socially liberal, or more acurately, libertarian movement.
     
  11. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    I agree with you on the weighting of the security issues. As I have said in other threads, Mr. Kerry terrified me on foreign affairs issues, and Mr. Bush terrified me on domestic issues. Therefore, as a moderate, I had to choose between the lesser of two evils.

    However, the bulk of moderates this year were driven into the Republican camp because the Democratic Party left them no wiggle room on same sex marriage, religious symbolism in government and other social issues. The Independence Party was not a viable alternative anywhere except perhaps Minnesota.

    Historically, third party options have never been self-sustaining for significant time periods. Indeed, Mr. Perot taught us the dangers of fragmenting into multiple parties. That is why I am so devoted to restoring moderate wings to each of the major election machines.
     
  12. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Just for clarification the Independence Party had no presidential candidate and as of now is only in MN, although we did help Angus King in Maine in his last election.

    The Independence Party never had an official endorsement although Edwards won the straw poll back in the March MN caucus with Bush in second.

    Even though I support the Independence Party realistically I'm not sure if a third party can ever get a President because of the amount of money and ingrained legal - cultural apparatus that sustains the two major parties. At this time we're looking to build here in MN and work with other moderate third parties in other states to get governorships and statehouse rather than try to make a big impact nationally.
     
  13. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    In a discussion tonight with a friend from the ranks of the Democratic Party, we agreed on one of the central reasons why the Republican and Democratic Parties have become more and more radicalized/polarized.

    Quite simply, it's the primary system.

    No one except the intensely partisan members of each party really gets involved in the early phases of primaries. This means that potential candidates must appeal to the absolute foaming at the mouth core of their party. The grassroots of the Republican Party is governed by the Religious Right while the grassroots of the Democratic Party is ruled by social activists (once known as Socialists, but that term is no longer PC).

    Only candidates who can pass the litmus test of these extremists get through the gate. Therefore, the more moderate general populace of each party is exposed only to hardcore candidates who must work hard to out-hardcore his or her rivals. Moderate candidates simply are aborted before they can reach the birth canal.

    By the time candidates are "test marketed" in the general primaries, we are offered only models that are hard-core party approved. That's why we get -- and will continue to get -- candidates with a lot of political baggage and built-in polarized accessories.

    Perhaps, if moderates enter the system at the very beginning -- like now! -- we can change the system to bring viable candidates to the showroom floor.
     
    #13 thumbs, Nov 4, 2004
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2004
  14. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    While I agree that in the short term it may be between difficult and impossible to get a third party president, I disagree that a third party, particularly one comprised of moderates, cannot have an effect. The mistake that I see the third parties making is in actually putting candidates up, candidates that have zero chance and end up drawing only the "none of the above" (bonus points for identifying the movie that phrase came from) voters.

    A third party could have a strong effect if it, at least in its nascent stages, chose to endorse candidates that agreed to work to address the party's concerns and issues. See it as a PAC that represents the moderate voters, a bloc that is larger than either of the major parties (35% Dem, 35% Rep, and 40% moderate or independant are the numbers I have seen).

    As the visibility and impact of the party increased, it could eventually begin putting up candidates for local, state, and even Congressional races and over the long term, could become a strong, viable third party.

    IOW, I think that problem with third parties lately has been that they do not take a long term view, instead choosing to try to "make a statement" in the short term by putting up candidates that don't have a snowball's chance in he!!. Unfortunately, these "statements" are only made by the tiny percentage of people interested in casting a protest vote.

    Eventually, I think a three party system would have a much better chance of helping the country to move in a unified direction rather than swinging wildly from left to right as power shifts. This type of system would guarantee cooperation since it would take two of the three parties to get things done.

    We can start such a party, but it would need to be based on moderation, compromise, and the members would need to take the long term view rather than chasing short term "messages" that don't end up having any impact at all.
     
  15. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    How about a party that is for:

    Fiscal responsibility, reduce government waste(pork projects).
    reduce taxation and spending.

    Stop try to be the world police in every situation and try to control how every other country should behave.

    Help the needy with the essentials and try to make them self sufficient.

    Create a health sytem that is for ALL amercans.

    Truely reform the education sytem to make it less costly and more efficient.

    Stop introducing Christian moral values into the government policies.

    I will try to add others later.

    Mark
     
  16. SpaceCity

    SpaceCity Member

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    Brewster's Millions.
     
  17. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    AndyMoon: First, more than several third parties have had decisive impacts on American politics but never lasted once their single issue was resolved. I would rather see a moderate influence in both parties at the same time so that our government is not overly fragmented like most European governments.

    Pirc1: You almost sound like a "compassionate conservative."

    Fiscal responsibility...check.
    Pork reduction...check.
    Reduction of taxation and spending levels...check.
    Avoiding foreign entanglements....check.
    Pacificism....not within the realm of reality.
    Helping the truly needy....check.
    A health system for all Americans....check.
    Reforming education to make us competitive again...double check
    Separation of religion and state...check.
    Ending war on religion by state...check.
    Maintaining a strong defense....check.
     
  18. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    DING, DING, DING, DING...We have a winner!

    3 bonus points for SpaceCity!
     
  19. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    Did I just turn into a Bush clone? Now that is a scary thought.:D
     
  20. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    Americans really are not so isolated from one another. We share common goals. The difference stems from how we want to accomplish those goals.
     

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