Spurs are not the team that you want to look at to justify your argument. While Max contract is a very situation dependent proposition- what I think is generally meant is a salary of about 8-10 Million Dollars/year. Spurs got lucky with Parker and Ginobili- not only did they pay peanuts for them they turned out to be studs. The team has done exceptionally well in terms of picking talent. Just think about it Bruce Bowen is at 3.75Million dollar salary. While money is not directly proportional to the talent- but if we are smart it is a no brainer that a 3rd option which delivers every single game is a must- whether we pay a max ( high dollar) salary or not. The problem is you dont get lucky that easily. Not sure what your point was about Van Horn. They also have Jerry Stackhouse who is more dangerous- that comes off the bench. Thinking about it this way- we are paying Wesley 5 Million, Juwan 6 and Stro 5 Million- if there was a choice then I would prefer a 10 Million dollar player who is near all star caliber. My point being, we already are paying that kind of salary- but to the wrong people. Partly because we had no choice ( in the case of Juwan) and the other two we made a conscious decision that they were good enough. The other advantage of having a high dollar player WITH skills- is if things dont work out in our system we can trade them. You may have issues with NY- but they were burned the day they gave Allan Houston the big contract. In fairness Isiah inherited a bloated payroll- the strategy now is to collect talent and change course quickly- Personally they got Steve Francis for peanuts. Rest assued NY can afford a higher payroll than other because of the market they are in. If you think Steve francis does not have trade value then I really can't debate that. Put Garnett in NY- and you will see that they can easily turn things around. I could not care much about NY or Dallas- but being cheap also hurts.
spurs have scouts who can spot intelligent players rather than players who are just exciting to watch.
$8-10MM can't be considered max by any stretch. Without being technical, I think $14MM+ (5yrs/$70MM) is an appropriate baseline for discussion. The Spurs weren't lucky with TP & Manu, just smart. Bottom line we agree on: We need a reliable 3rd scoring option next season. Whether it's Maggette, Harrington, Rafer, Luther Head, next years' "steal in the draft", a free agent or someone we trade for. My preference is for a perimeter player (SG). After what's happened this year, there are no more excuses for CD & JVG.
Well, you didn't say that. You said Max. Max contract about normally 14mil on up. Thats my point. Suns also got lucky with Amare in the draft. Paying high $ isn't the answer. Getting lucky and/or making smart moves is the answer. Exactly, are you suggesting we should pay $8-$10 mil for a bench player because that is what Dallas does? Using Dallas as an example is poor because they have an owner willing to spare no expense ...and they've made A LOT of mistakes over the years. They've corrected MOST of them now but a result, they have two high $ guys coming off the bench. And Dampier is a disaster! Maybe. Doing so you are putting all your eggs in one basket. If that one guy gets hurt, what happens? Look at this season, Stro got hurt this season but Wesley and Howard have both been very productive. I can't disagree. But getting one high $ guy is risky. The better solution, IMO, is to find well rounded role players like the Spurs did. We have done that too its just that our guys have a limited window since they are older. Lets just find more guys like Juwan Howard and Wesley but younger and I'm sure we'll be fine. Wesley also came via trade and, IMO, he was an upgrade over Jimmy Jackson. We probably did about the best we could in that trade. Thats true. But ANY trade is risky. 1. If a guy needs to be traded, often it means things didn't work and then their trade value goes down for various reasons (such as attitude problems (see Artest), injuries (see VCarter), lack of chemistry means drop in production (see Francis in Orlando), etc etc etc. 2. Bringing in new players is always risky proposition even if its a good player. Making a trade is a 50/50 proposition and should really only be a last resort when you are talking about solid impact players. All the more reason why high $ guys doesn't equal high productivity. The Knicks sucked even before Isiah showed up. So? NY is just an example of bring in high $ guys doesn't translate to being a contender. I'm not arguing that. But Steve Francis is a GREAT example of why making trades is a risky business. Just because you have an "impact" player doesn't mean you'll get fair trade value in exchange. Orlando got raped both coming and going regarding Steve. OBVIOUSLY. Putting top-10 players like Garnett anywhere will turn things around. That would be a no-brainer trade. When guys like Garnett become available, you do everything you can. Hell, I'd even strongly consider trading McGrady for Garnett. But we can't get Garnett for Wesley, Stro and Juwan. But getting top-10 talent is RARE. So lets look at top-50 guys that deserve big contracs. If you can get them for a good trade, go for it. But getting solid role players is just as, if not MORE, effective than getting 3 stars. You should care because NY and Dallas are poster children for why getting 3+ big contracts on one team doesn't automatically translate to results. Les Alexander is anything but cheap. He has made many many big trades in the last 15 years. Pippen, Barkley, Francis, TMac plus tons of smaller trades. When Alexander sees a big move that makes sense, he'll pull the trigger. But he isn't going to risk his $ and get into NY's postion. btw, the Pippen trade is a GREAT example of bringing in a 3rd "max" guy and getting screwed! Pippen didn't work out and therefore his trade value was CRAP. So we got 6 guys in return, 3 of which we immediately released, IIRC. The only we kept long term was Cato, IIRC. Woo hoo. btw, Cato basically translated into us getting Juwan Howard ...which IMO is an upgrade. So unlike every else around here, I'm reasonably satisfied with Juwan Howard. I'd love to upgrade Howard if we could. But I'd love to upgrade the whole team too but that's not so easy is it?
/quote You should care because NY and Dallas are poster children for why getting 3+ big contracts on one team doesn't automatically translate to results. Les Alexander is anything but cheap. He has made many many big trades in the last 15 years. Pippen, Barkley, Francis, TMac plus tons of smaller trades. When Alexander sees a big move that makes sense, he'll pull the trigger. But he isn't going to risk his $ and get into NY's postion. btw, the Pippen trade is a GREAT example of bringing in a 3rd "max" guy and getting screwed! Pippen didn't work out and therefore his trade value was CRAP. So we got 6 guys in return, 3 of which we immediately released, IIRC. The only we kept long term was Cato, IIRC. Woo hoo. /unquote We are talking of entirely different type of players- Barkley Pippen were future hall of famers ( and that was while ago) . The idea was to get a few more rings- apparently that did not work out. IT DID NOT BREAK THE BANKSteve Francis- came our way because he did not want to play in Canada. His max Deal was only after the rookie contract . IT DID NOT BREAK THE BANK I am talking of players in 26-28 Years range who are near all star calibre. I am not sure what you mean by putting all eggs in one basket- we already have invested in Yao and TMAc- sure if either get injured seriously that is a risk. Having mediocre talent does not translate into a sound business decision either ( especially when their trade value is negative ( read Juwan Howard)) One way of doing it is to get "lucky"- I would prefer a more logical approach. Get a third Option for next season at least. IF we get that person for peanuts wonderful- but let us be prepared to pay 8-10 Million a year.
I'd say it did break the bank. We lost Cassel and Horry + other for Barkley. A perfect example of two role players that were awsome and helped bring us a championship. Once we traded them for a "max" player, we didn't win again. Conversley, the Pippen trade was even worse. We got tied up in multiple contracts due to that acquisition...which were all pretty crappy players mind you. It didn't break the bank cause he was the only max guy on the team. Ok genius, We're over the cap so we can't sign a 26 year old all-star outright. We have to make a trade. Please describe a realistic trade we could pull off that is obviously better than what we got and that we wouldn't get outbid by other NBA teams. Lets hear it. We tried to get Artest but didn't have enough to offer in a trade. Rumored we inquired about Steve Francis. Nothing. We tried to get Rashard Lewis two summers ago and lost because Seattle had bird rights. We tried to get Michial Finnley and lost the bidding war. We tried to get Marc Jackson and lost cause he was an unrestricted FA. Inquired about Derick Fisher but didn't want to overpay. Lost James Posey cause we didn't want to overpay. Not sure if we inquired about Antwon Walker but if we did, we didn't have enough to offer. I think we looked at Brent Barry but couldn't make a competative offer. So lets hear your trade proposal that works for BOTH teams and that we won't get outbid by somebody for the same player. Lets hear it. We did EXACTLY what you suggested this offseason. We picked up Stromile Swift. A young guy that has all-star potential. Another example of why paying big bucks for a guy doesn't pay off. You just never know what the future holds. You are saying the Rockets made a poor business decision in acquiring Juwan Howard via the Tracy McGrady trade. You should just be happy the Juwan is at least a productive player. It could have been MUCH worse (see Kelvin Cato). Speaking of Cato, we also signed him to a big contract thinking he was a young guy with lots of potential. That worked out well. We also signed Maurice Taylor on potential. That worked out well. We also traded for Eddie Griffin on potential. That worked out great as well. ...and thats just the Rockets. Shall we go through the list of ALL NBA teams that perscribed to your philosophy. Lets look at other "max" players that a greedy team snatched up and turned out to be a disaster: Joe Johnson - not worth it. He isn't a max type player cause he can't carry a team himself. Keith Van Horn - disaster Kevin Garnett - signed such a big contract they couldn't sign anybody else until he accepted a smaller contract later. disaster. Vince Carter - doesn't stay healthy enough (although playing well this season finally) Steve Francis - disaster. Allan Houston - disaster. Stephon Marbury - disaster. Jalen Rose - disaster. Grant Hill - disaster. According to RealGM, there are 24 "max" contracts. 9 of those are disasters. That's a nearly 40% failure rate. Of the remaing 60% of the "max" players, only 5 of those players are on contending teams. Spending big $ on players doesn't guarentee you of Jack. The 94 Rocks only had one big time player. The 95 Rocks only had two. The Spurs only have one big contract in Duncan. The 99 Spurs only had two. The 2000-2003 Lakers had two big guns. You need to make good personelle moves AND get lucky (as we did acquiring both Yao and TMac). Spending $$$ doesn't guarentee you of ANYTHING. And often spending $$$ gets you into more trouble than you started (see Pippen). Again, go no further than Dallas or NY. Dallas signed Atwon Walker, Antawn Jamison, Juwan Howard, Nick Van Excel, etc and all these were disasters. It didn't work for VARIOUS reasons. Why, because trades are RISKY and you don't know exactly how they'll play out esp if you have too many stars. Look, We got lucky with Yao. Easier said than done. Les Alexander has shown he is ready to pull the trigger if it makes sense. But he isn't just going to be willy nilly.
