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Westbrook Over and Back?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Lil Pun, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. Lil Pun

    Lil Pun Contributing Member

    Oct 6, 1999
    Likes Received:
    I see a lot of Spurs fans arguing the Harden dunk by saying the Westbrook pass to Chandler at the end of the half should not have resulted in points because it was a backcourt violation or over and back. I do not believe that is the case because the ball was never passed into the backcourt after being in the front court and Westbrook never established position in the frontcourt either.

    The NBA rulebook isn't quite clear either:


    Section VI—Frontcourt/Backcourt

    a. A team’s frontcourt consists of that part of the court between its endline and the
    nearer edge of the midcourt line, including the basket and inbounds part of the backboard.
    b. A team’s backcourt consists of the entire midcourt line and the rest of the court to
    include the opponent’s basket and inbounds part of the backboard.
    c. A ball being held by a player: (1) is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player
    is touching the backcourt, (2) is in the backcourt if either the ball or player is touching the
    d. A ball being dribbled is (1) in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the player
    are in the frontcourt, (2) in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player is in the
    e. The ball is considered in the frontcourt once it has broken the plane of the midcourt
    line and is not in player control.
    f. The team on offense must bring the ball across the midcourt line within 8 seconds.

    EXCEPTION: (1) kicked ball, (2) punched ball, (3) personal or technical foul on the
    defensive team, (4) delay-of-game warning on the defensive team or (5) infection control.

    g. Frontcourt/backcourt status is not attained until a player with the ball has established
    a positive position in either half during (1) a jump ball, (2) a steal by a defensive player,
    (3) a throw-in in the last two minutes of the fourth period and last two minutes of any
    overtime period or (4) any time the ball is loose.

    I don't think it was a violation but I am not going to act like I am an NBA ref either. What do you guys think?
  2. DrNuegebauer

    DrNuegebauer Member

    Mar 29, 2000
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    I can't remember where his feet were... surely a screencap or 2 would have helped?

    I recall nothing strange. However backcourt violation can only happen after all of the ball and both ball handlers feet are established in the front court AND THEN the ball is possessed in the back court.
    B-Bob likes this.
  3. juanm34

    juanm34 Member

    Feb 19, 2009
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    The refs let it slide because they thought Westbrick was shooting it- Resulting in a brick-
    But Tyson intervened and bailed him out-
    Caught the refs off guard and proceeded to use Hardens dunk as a make up call down the road.
  4. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

    Feb 11, 2006
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    Interesting OP. You could be right. From the rules you posted, it doesn’t appear to be a violation, and now I’m remembering something like this coming up in the past where it was clarified that it’s not a violation as long as the player’s feet are over the line prior to him getting the ball. They don’t have to be on the floor with both feet. Out of bounds is different though, and I do think there was a play where Harden got the ball before establishing legal position and laid it in. Might have been in the 4th.
    bro2044 likes this.
  5. icewill36

    icewill36 Member

    Mar 17, 2007
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    to me there is a big difference between the two plays. refs miss/ignore violations that end up leading to baskets all game. harden was a clean play with the basket being wiped out for no real reason. he didnt travel, he didnt charge, he didnt miss, there wasnt a timeout called, but they didnt count the basket because they werent paying close enough attention and didnt allow the coach to challenge after he told them to pull their head out of their @ss. we cant have that. it shouldnt even need a challenge.

    im sure the league wont do anything about it, but at least going forward they should be able to simply add the basket without a review the same way they do if they rule three a two, or two a three and see later they were behind the arc.
  6. LorneMalvo

    LorneMalvo Member

    Dec 12, 2017
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    If it was possibly a Westbrook turnover, the. It probably should’ve been called:
  7. The Cat

    The Cat Contributing Member

    Jan 24, 2000
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    Missed calls that benefit both teams happen in every single game. Even if that play was legal, they'll find another one.

    What's different about the Harden dunk, besides the extreme nature of a made basket, is that D'Antoni wasn't allowed to challenge it... even though the crew chief admits it was reviewable. And the explanation of "not within 30 seconds" is nonsense, since D'Antoni says the officials gave conflicting statements on what the call was (can't challenge until you know what to challenge), and Capers admits that he doesn't even remember what he/they said, or when.

    If the Westbrook over-and-back call was A) wrong, B) reviewable, and C) Popovich was denied an attempted challenge of it for no apparent reason, then it would be an appropriate counter-example. Otherwise, it's total apples and oranges.

    The Rockets' protest isn't just about a missed judgment call. Those happen to the detriment of both teams in every single basketball game. That's how those with an anti-Rockets agenda are attempting to normalize it. The Rockets' protest is about a misapplication of the rules, which occurred when D'Antoni was not allowed to challenge what the crew chief admits was a reviewable play. You can't just find a generic missed call to the benefit of the Rockets and act like it's comparable. That's not the issue.
    #7 The Cat, Dec 4, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
    34to11 likes this.
  8. I am a Donut

    I am a Donut Contributing Member

    Jul 29, 2003
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    I’m pretty sure this was a violation. Clark had both feet and the ball across the line, so he had established frontcout position. At this point if Westbrook has either foot still down in the backcourt when he catches it that’s a violation, and he did.

    I’m going off this video with Coach Nick and Ronnie Nunn. Skip ahead to 4:10

    #8 I am a Donut, Dec 4, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  9. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

    Nov 23, 2002
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    IDGAF about spurs fans...
    34to11 and HP3 like this.
  10. SemisolidSnake

    Jul 12, 2013
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    This transcends trading points for points to justify a final outcome. A ball went through a basket in a 100% legal way in a basketball game and was not ruled as points scored. There's no room for interpretation, and it's 100% clear on video replay. There is not a more fundamental thing that could be called wrong in the game of basketball, and it's outrageous. If the Rockets won or lost by 20, the level of outrage shouldn't slack at all at how bad this was.
    34to11 likes this.

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