1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Egypt has sunk back to the "darkest hours of the Mubarak era" - Amnesty

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Northside Storm, Apr 4, 2015.

  1. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2014/07/egypt-anniversary-morsi-ousting/

    And no, it's not just the Muslim Brotherhood who is being attacked, in case you felt that was a justification.

    http://globalnews.ca/news/1811914/leading-egyptian-activist-among-230-sentence-to-life-in-prison/

    What happens to children in Egypt's prisons?

    http://www.ibtimes.com/egyptian-aut...ng-sexually-abusing-teenage-prisoners-1680564

    What has been the American response?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...528c2c-d7d6-11e4-8103-fa84725dbf9d_story.html

    From the protesters themselves including many of the secular activists who were fighting for a better Egypt despite religion.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/twB2zAOzsKE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    "So this is what the Army is like!"

    "The Army betrayed the revolution."

    "We did all of this in order to remove him and put someone exactly like him in his place."

    "The Army has killed, tortured us--and the people out there know that."

    What is your response to all this?
     
  2. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,713
    Likes Received:
    18,911
    That Egypt doesn't know how to run a democracy. The idea they could figure it out on their own was noble but naive. The U.S. should have stepped in and help construct the gov't in terms of writing a constitution and finding a way to prevent one side from getting too much power.
     
  3. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    10,344
    Likes Received:
    1,203
    My response?

    I'm not Egyptian, so it's none of my concern.
     
  4. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    so you're okay with American tax dollars going to fund an abusive prison system that helped further radicalise the current leader of Al-Qaeda?
     
  5. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    66,379
    Likes Received:
    44,013
    You don't think the guy was radical already?

    Your constant insinuations that somehow the USA are behind the radicalization of Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab, etc. etc. are stupid.

    Their ideology and methods are exactly the same Wahhabism has been applying for more than 200 years, and actually go back to the "prophet" who beheaded hundreds of Jews more than a thousand years ago.

    Some prison system is not the root cause. Their ideology is.
     
  6. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    10,344
    Likes Received:
    1,203
    Yes, I really don't care, and it's a good point that the US should stop funding all current subsidies of food and weapons for Egypt. Same should be done with Saudi Arabia, but we know that won't happen. So, in the meantime I will continue to say "meh".
     
  7. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    When do you start caring: is it when desperate conditions outside America threaten your safety in America?

    you can be frank, a lot of people I've encountered tend to be that type.
     
  8. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    By your logic, am I to take it that you endorse the sexual assault and torture of minors by the Egyptian authorities with your silence?

    Now--

    Was the Menachem Begin that founded Likud and the Menachem Begin that ordered the bombing and hanging of British authorities and the massacre/parading of Palestinian civilians in Deir Yassin and many other places the same ideological person: or had he been changed through some magical mix of circumstance and thought? Was the Zionist ideology that inspired the Irgun Zvai the same as inspired Likud: or had it been "reformed"?
     
  9. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    66,379
    Likes Received:
    44,013
    That is not my logic. That is just some idiotic intern's hallucination.
     
  10. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    What's with your lack of interest with how Egypt treats protesters? Is it because it doesn't fit into your neat packaged narrative?

    Where is the outrage, ATW?
     
  11. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    42,132
    Likes Received:
    5,443
    Would be nice if your idea was possible.

    Unfortunately, it's either this or the Brotherhood (which is far worse).
     
  12. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    66,379
    Likes Received:
    44,013
    I think what they are doing is absolutely not right, but it is by far the lesser of two evils for that country. As we have seen all over the Arab/Muslim world, the only way to have a semblance of public order seems to be to rule with an iron fist. The only viable alternative at this moment seems to be anarchy and Islamist terror.

    The whole thing has to do with a lack of education and a backwards-oriented culture, which is heavily influenced by irrational Islamic beliefs.

    Also, intern, I didn't say that certain posters endorsed actions by not being outraged about them, I called out their double standard in harshly condemning Israel for something and then ignoring it when Saudi Arabia does something at least as bad.

    Being hypocritical about something is not the same as endorsing it.

    Exactly. But Northside Intern seemed to be a big fan of the Brotherhood and hailed them as the saviors of all things democracy, whereas he keeps railing against those that displaced those terrorist-affiliated Islamists.
     
  13. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    Are the Brotherhood worse because they kill civilians in colder blood, or because they torture and execute faster, or because they sexually assault children with double speed?

    I think it's a cop-out to say "it's this hellhole or the other larger hellhole" without examining any of the evidence.
     
  14. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    Tunisia begs to differ.

    Also, this is what you said about the American torture regime:

    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=9391948&highlight=torture#post9391948

    Why are you so much more muted on Egypt? Does that make you a hypocrite, especially given how much worse Egypt seems to be at this?
     
  15. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    10,344
    Likes Received:
    1,203
    It's a governance issue. What should someone like myself or the US military and government do: hold their hand and tell them how to run a democracy according to someone else's vision? I don't think it works that way. I don't think it will work in Iraq. I don't think it's up to the US to go around the world saying "we do it this way, so should you".

    All we can hope to achieve is common respect for international laws, which includes property rights, basic human rights, international legal procedures, etc. The revolution is Egypt's thing. This is their new government's response, and there is not much the US could do without angering the current government. I don't think another change in government would be good for Egypt or the US.
     
  16. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    Do you agree that giving military aid to a regime that denies basic human rights runs counter to even your very faint hope?
     
  17. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    66,379
    Likes Received:
    44,013
    I'll give you the standard response given by leftists like you on this forum when I call out their hypocrisy:

    "I hold the USA to higher standards."

    Basically, Egypt, while it has some natural beauty and a rich history, and many friendly people, is a pretty messed up country/society with a lot of people who hold pretty messed up beliefs. Sadly, this leads to bad things committed by those in power almost regardless of who is in power. One big difference between it being Islamists or the military is that the Islamists will oppress women more and will try to enforce their fanatical agenda, whereas the military primarily stifles any kind of dissent. Both is bad, very bad, but when you have such a large proportion of the population holding Islamist beliefs (and being willing to act on it), unless you rule with an iron fist, their agenda will take over. Does that justify torture, etc.? Not morally, not legally. But you have to wonder what the alternative is. We currently see it in Iraq and Syria and Libya. The USA has other options. Whether Egypt currently has other options is doubtful.

    And now get off your frickin moral high horse and go outside. That's what I will do. Although I have been very patient with you, intern, I am currently a bit tired of educating you.
     
  18. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    So you think sexual assault of minors is less repressive for women? There have been several rapes of girls committed by the military but of course we're in the twilight zone of "the Muslim Brotherhood would have chopped their heads off." Assumably. Who knows, they're just so much worse...somehow.

    The last part is hilarious to me, you're in a thread I started. I don't have to leave s**t. If you want to leave and "go outside" nobody is stopping you lmao.
     
    #18 Northside Storm, Apr 4, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
  19. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    10,344
    Likes Received:
    1,203
    The torture is unacceptable, and it also happened in Iraq. There really wasn't much the US government could do with the Iraq government but basically turn a blind eye (but that obviously doesn't mean they did nothing).

    What action do you think should be taken against the Egyptian government?
     
  20. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    well for starters, not providing them with military aid and weapons that they use on their own people would help.

    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page