Barkley : Harden is the greatest offensive talent to ever play

Yes, it definitely is recency bias. We all have nostalgia tied to the basketball events we witness and it isn't fun to suggest that we may have missed watching a GOAT in his prime because we were born too late. But when you take an accurate look at Wilt's career, and his level of competition, what he did is even more astounding. Watch the video I posted in this thread to get a better idea.

 

Wilt was like Shaq in his physical dominance, except he was stronger (purported benched 600 lbs and still benched 450 into his 40's), more agile, faster, jumped higher (reported to have a 50" vert, compare to 6'6 MJ who had 48" vert) and was more skilled - better ball handler, better passer, better shot blocker, better defender.

And his stamina was legendary, on and off the court.

Led NBA in scoring 7 consecutive years, rebound champ 11 times, led in field goal % 9 times, led in minutes played 8 times (48.5 mpg 1 season) and even led in assists one season (still the only time in NBA history that center led in assists). Averaged 23 rebounds for the series he won 1st ring.

Only player to average 50 pts and 25 boards in a season, score 100 pts in a game, score over 4,000 total pts in a season (MJ came the closest with 3,000 total points).

Low level competition my ass.

Wilt played against 11x champion Bill Russell, 2x champ Willis Reed, 6x champ Kareem Abdul Jabar, Bob Lanier, Walt Frazier, Pistol Pete Maravich, Bob Cousy, John Havlicek, Tiny Archibald (he was 6'1), Oscar Robertson, Walt Bellamy, Jerry West, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, Lenny Wilkens, Rick Barry, Elgin Baylor, Nate Thurmond, Bill Bradley, Dave DeBusschere, Wes Unseld, Dave Cowens, Jerry Lucas, Elvin Hayes, Earl Monroe and many more HOFers.

And Wilt outscored, outrebounded, blocked more shots than all of his contemporaries but he only ended up with ROY, 4 MVPs, 7 scoring titles, 13 All Stars and 2 championships as many of the teams he played on lacked the All Star packed talent of the Celtics, Bullets, Knicks, 76ers and Lakers.

Wilt temporarily retired after his 1st season because refs would let opposing teams punch, mob, hang on him and elbow him at will because he was so big and strong. His contemporaries admited later that Wilt took the most brutal pounding of any player.

Wilt also had the audacity to date white women which led to vicious race baiting, death threats and unfair officiating. Wilt was also outspoken and that made him hated by many NBA players, coaches, owners and media - even on his own team. He was vilified as a villain during his era.

And even under these conditions Wilt rarely fouled out.

Wilt was also so physically dominant many rules were changed such as the lane was widened to push him further away from the basket, outlawed inbounding over the backboard, outlawed dunking from FT when taking FT, created offensive goaltending, lane violations during FT and other rules.

You are being disingenuous about Wilt due to ignorance.

Educate yourself.

 

You beat me to it (regarding the bolded part); as mentioned earlier, Durant can get a good shot in any circumstance over anyone, which, to me, makes him the best scorer ever. He gets buckets on any and everyone. But in full context, I agree with the notion that Harden is the greatest offensive talent ever (as in, the whole package).

As you directly pointed out, what puts James over the top is that how much he creates for others. I did some looking into, and I found this out. Since James became a Rocket, he has averaged (over his entire HOU tenure), 30 PPG and 8 APG. And can you imagine how much higher his APG numbers would've been if this team was ever blessed with consistent, higher-percentage, knock-down shooters? He would be a 30-11 (Assists) guy minimum. And I didn't even take into account that he is already Top-5 all-time for made 3-Point FGs.

What also furthers the case for James, is that nobody, in the history of the game, has been double-teamed so frequently the moment he approaches the half-court line. Not MJ, not Kobe, not Bron, not Steph, not even KD. Where coaches try, and fail, to come up with any competent game plan to stop James. When James has a bad game, there is rarely a "their defensive strategy that actually worked" for other teams to successfully emulate.

 

agreed...prime Shaq is the closest comparison to how dominant Wilt would’ve been

Would he be averaging those insane numbers in more recent eras? No, but averaging like 30 and 14 is something I have no doubt he could do.

 

Today I could see Wilt averaging 35 ppg, 17 rpg, 5-6 apg, 2-3 bpg, and 3-5 women per game

 

LOLOLOL

Hassan Whitside???? Please edit for your own sake.

Wilt would have run Shaq into the ground, then run circles around him, then overpowered him to the rim. If not through him, then over him. Wilt had a 50" vert for a 7'1 300 lbs man for gawd's sake.

Even a young in his prime MVP level Lew Alcinder (aka Kareem) was destroyed by Wilt who was already at twilight of his career and decade older.

Ewing is very skilled but would have been a turnstile playing vs. Wilt. Robinson and Mutumbo are very good but Wilt was a GREAT!!!

Dream would have given him the most difficulty because he was not just a freak athletically (guardlike footwork, hands like serpents and could run like the wind and legendary stamina).

Think a more skilled Bill Russell. Russell was freak 6'10 athlete who ran like a deer with nonstop energy and will to win like no other.

There were not a lot of true 7 footers as skilled as Shaq in the 80's or 90's. Hakeem and Ewing were not true 7 footers.

Robinson and Mutumbo were 7 footers but limited offensively.

But you really need to stop spouting this nonsense and just crack open a book or two.

There is not a lot of film during this era but there is enough.

 

As Bum said about Earl, "I don't know if he's in a class by himself, but I do know that when that class gets together, it sure don't take long to call the roll."

 

Harden is definitely at the very top in the discussion.

Don't want to hijack the thread, but Wilt was an all time great player no doubt.

But if you look deeper than raw points per game or box scores; and take a microscope to his numbers and era, he's not better than some of the guys listed offensively.

 

Wilt's offensive production is considered an outlier and when comparison's are made they always do so with exception vs. Wilt Chamberlain.

They do not do this for any other player of that era, or any era before or since.

Wilt Chamberlain could do anything on the basketball court except shoot FT at high efficiency.

Some do not understand how unique of an athlete Wilt was. After his retirement he was making movies and on set of Conan he was out benching Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime.

Wilt trained with Cus D'Mato (guy who developed Mike Tyson) to fight Muhammad Ali. D'Mato convinced Wilt that he had the speed and power to beat Ali in his prime.

Kansas City Chiefs head coach Hank Stram invited Wilt to a tryout where he caught every single pass mostly one handed.

Then he ran a 4.6 40 on grass.

Barefoot.

Stram tried very hard to have him play WR.

Wilt also participated in a professional volleyball all star game and was so dominant that he was voted the MVP.

Wilt and Jim Brown were at a party and decided to race. Wilt beat Jim Brown.

Twice.

But Wilt does not need me to defend his honor or his legend.



https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/wilt-chamberlain

https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/Why-Wilt-Chamberlain-was-the-Greatest-Athlete-of-All-Time

 

Some of the advanced stats were developed to give more credence to modern players.

Sometimes a rose is just a rose.

The most rebounds, points, blocks, minutes played are exactly that.

Win share is not real individual stats, not to the extent that the above totals are.

Players that play on the most successful most talented teams have the best WS.

 

On another note seeing how sorry A.D. is....serious question man hakeem would get u 40 a night in todays game. He would shaq like with how trash center are. Its just crazy how these guys have like no post moves...how they don't know hpw to defeat doubles lol. People say mj would be insane...hakeem whould be insane insane. Wings still good n everything in this era atleast defense wise... but wow hakeem would look like the most unstoppable force in sports.

Coaches n players would be like wait...you allowed to do turn around fade aways in the post.....ref can he do spin moves like that down low...is that a travel or some.

Whoa whoa whoa that that lil shimy shake move he just did. Thats a tech lol


Wait why does he know how to defeat double teams in the post. He Manipulate my rules lmao

 

Oh I've seen that video before.... and what video exists if the NBA during the early 60's just bolsters my case. The current level of competition in the CBA is superior to the NBA in the 60's. Watching Wilt beat up on that weak and small competition is similar to watching an NBA bench player wreck people at a local YMCA.... it looks awesome but doesn't give you a true idea of their talent due to the competition.

Wilt couldn't shoot, had no offensive weapons that would work against legitimate competition, and if he played in the modern NBA (or even that of the 90's) his size and athleticism wouldn't be special enough to allow him to play like he did.... he'd have to be a LOT better to justify playing time.

When you are the only 7 footer in a league full of unathletic 6'8 or 6'9 centers, it's easy to look like the GOAT... but it doesn't mean it's true.

 

That's complete BS saying Wilt was only 7 footer. That's like saying Shaq only 7 footer in his era.

You know that Lew Alcindor/Kareem played against Wilt right?

 

Kareem's rookie season was 69-70 and by then Wilt was already 33 years old nearing the end of his career. By the time the league started becoming competitive, Wilt was already done.

When you talk about him scoring 50 points a game for a season or getting 25 or more rebounds per game it was at a time when there was quite literally 2 other 7 footers in the league and they were both absolutely terrible. That's why Wilt looked so dominant. Shaq's rookie season there were seven 7 footers in his conference alone....and 2 of them are HOFers. The difference between the level of competition the two players faced couldn't be greater. Hakeem Olajuwon would have put clown shoes on Wilt on both sides of the ball. We never got to see that, instead we got to see Wilt put up 78/43 in a game.....now of course 6'5 Elgin Baylor also put up 63/31 in that same game against Wilt....and the Lakers won despite both of their centers fouling out of the game fairly quickly resulting in them guarding Wilt with guys who would be too small to be PF's in the modern NBA. Also if you look at his numbers, scoring only 78 on 62 FGA's and 31 FT's is actually kind of terrible, but that context would go against the legend.

Jeremy Lin could look like Micheal Jordan playing against me, it wouldn't make him the GOAT.

Look, I respect your opinion, I really do.....it's just this is an area where I don't think we'll end up seeing eye to eye.

 

Wilt, MJ, Kobe and KD (if that was his main goal) would all be. Harden is all time which is no joke, to be int the same convo as those guys is crazy enough

 

Durant is the most gifted perimeter scorer in NBA history due to his size/ skill combo.

 

So why isnt Elgin Baylor held to same standard?

Baylor's accomplishments are not asterisked with a caveat? Oscar Robertson? Jerry West? Walt Bellamy? Bill Russell? Tiny Archibald? Bob Cousy?

It is only Wilt that is 'yeah but'.

And for context, when Wilt entered NBA there were only 9 teams. There were already three 7 footers and three 6'11 players. But the best players were concentrated in smaller pools. Wilt played these HOFers like Bill Russell, Walt Bellamy, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Dave Cowens HUNDREDS of times in his career.

7 footers during Wilt's era were fewer because the pace was bullet like. Not enough athletic 7 footers who could be efficient in that era's blistering pace. Wilt not only prospered he dominated.

Wilt was the father of the skilled 7 footers who came after him. The golden era of centers from 70's-90's are the result of Wilt.

And yes, Chamberlain was 11 years older than 7'2 Lew Alcindor/Kareem Abdul Jabar who was fresh off an MVP season and scoring title. But Wilt still ran his ace off the floor and off the court in the playoffs.

Wilt played Alcindor 27 times. For comparison, Shaq played Hakeem a total of 28 times.

Does that invalidate Wilt's dominance because he was older? Does that invalidate Lew/Kareem's legacy because he got manhandled by Wilt?

Shaq entered a league that had already matured to more than 30 teams with talent spread across those teams and he played the very best centers sparingly, the HOF centers like Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, etc. only few times a season. By the way, Moses Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon are no less great because they were 6'9 or 6'10.

Height doesnt make a player great otherwise Manute Bol would be the greatest player ever. Or Mark Eaton? Or Shawn Bradley? Or Gheorge Mureson?

And Shaq came toward the end of the golden era of centers, during his championship heyday his true contemporaries were Alonzo Mourning, Yao Ming, Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard.

Mourning, Ben Wallace and Dwight were 6'9 or 6'10. At most.

Same height as Bill Russell, Wes Unseld, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Elvin Hayes. While Walt Bellamy was 6'11.

Does that invalidate Shaq's accomplishments vs. these players?

Even today, there very few 7 footers who are as HOF caliber talent because these kind of players are generational. Durant and Giannis are not true 7 footers. I love how players have to use height measurements without shoes again (as it used to be) so true heights are used instead of heights with lifts...I mean shoes.

Not to change your mind but to expand it, read this article.

https://syndication.bleacherreport....or-wilt-chamberlain-as-the-best-ever.amp.html

This was fun.

 

There’s no even remote possibility that Wilt Chamberlain benched pressed 500lbs let alone the 600 mentioned here. I’d be quite honestly shocked if he did 350 but I suppose that’s in the realm of possibility. He’s 7’2”, long and lean. It’s just not going to happen. For comparisons sake the freaking Mountain from game of thrones is 6’9” and a strong man by trade. He benches 550. Look at the difference in size between these 2 men.

This isn’t a knock against Wilt who is one of the best athletes of all time. But there’s a lot of legend surrounding him that’s outlandish and some created by him personally. He also didn’t sleep with 20,000 women.

We should also keep in mind that Wilt’s counting stats much like Oscars’s are greatly inflated by pace of play and an abundance more possessions than modern NBA players. Wilt is a top 10 player no doubt, but averaging 50 points per game then is not remotely the same as doing it now. You can’t do a direct stat to stat comparison across eras.

 

I don't put those guys in the conversation for greatest of all time. When I talk about them, I keep it in the context of when they played. They were the greatest of their era.

That didn't happen though. Kareem averaged nearly 30 points per game against Wilt in the playoffs and over 30 points per game against Wilt in the regular season.

Kareem scored fewer than 20 points against Wilt only once in his career but Kareem once held Wilt scoreless for 46 minutes. Another time Kareem held Wilt to 5 points in 44 minutes in the playoffs the game after holding him to 7 points in 47 minutes.

Hell Kareem dropped 37 on Wilt in his sophomore season, it's stuff like that that makes me believe that if Wilt had to go against more legitimate competition for his entire career, his image would be greatly different today. He's not doing his post finger roll nonsense against basically any center in the NBA past 1980, that's something that even a PF like RoCo would send back in his face literally every time.

Agreed, I think it's an interesting topic to discuss even if we happen to disagree about it.