I just thought of another issue. Mace is a terrible weapon for incapacitating someone. It's an irritant and is a defensive weapon to drive off an attacker but not incapacitate. For example LE use it for crowd control to disperse crowds not to subdue them for arrest and bear mace doesn't knock out the bear just drive off the bear. If Keltner was intending to use it to subdue Dollof and take his firearm he would've maced himself once he stepped towards Dollof. It's certainly possible he was that ignorant, again we would have no way of knowing that, but if the defense is that Dollof shot Keltner because he believed that Keltner was trying to incapacitate him to take his gun that would require both of them to be that ignorant regarding how mace works.
Lets get the timeline straight here - First The Shooter attempted to take the dead guys mace. The shooter was subsequently slapped and maced and then fired. The shooter had no authority to disarm the mace from the dead dude in the first place. He's not "the police" , he's simply a bodyguard there to keep his client safe. His client was never in any danger of life or limb. No , mace is not "imminent threat" to life or wellbeing. Its less than lethal and does not do permanent damage. No , being slapped is not "imminent threat" to live or wellbeing - particularly not when that individual retreated from physical distance and subsequently used a non lethal defensive aid (Mace).
His weapon was concealed ... I doubt there was any thought in Keltners mind of "taking a weapon" he didn't know Dollof possessed until he pulled it. The "slap" was provoked by Dollof's attempt to take his mace. Keltner also physically separated himself (retreated) and used his mace after slapping Dollof ....
I think the main issue here is if mace is considered "imminent threat" to life and limb combined with the circumstances. If it is then lethal force is justified. If it isn't .... It isn't. Cases have gone both ways with the use of mace in the past but under far different circumstances.
I think you are using incapacitate wrong. Bear mace will definitely take your eyesight that is incapacitation. All of these self defense and stand your ground laws are based in speculative arguments hence the reasonably believes that are thrown in there. Your saying most people would say something is speculative as well, most people believe Zimmerman response was disproportionate yet we see how that turned out.
The shooter attempted to take the guys mace? I guess somebody has gotten their talking points. It took ya'll long enough.
You are making up a hell of a lot of **** but I will play along. Why if Ketner was a "retreating" did he feel the need to use mace?
Yes it can take your eyesight but if the idea is to incapacitate your opponent to take their weapon once you discharge the mace you will mace yourself if you try to disarm your opponent. Look at the pic. There is a cloud of mace between Dollof and Keltner. If Keltner hadn't been shot and tried to come forward he would've put himself in that cloud. Defenses like Zimmerman's aren't speculative because you actually hear what was in the defendent's head. Zimmerman did testify that he was in fear of his life therefore he shot Trayvon Martin. It's speculative to say that Martin was trying to incapacitate Zimmerman to take his gun. That's speculative because we have no way of knowing what Trayvon Martin was thinking. It's the same in this case. We have no way of knowing what Keltner was thinking. All we know is that he slapped and maced Dollof but don't know if that was just meant to drive him off. We don't know if his intention was to try to take Dollof's firearm. The argument whether Zimmerman used disproportionate force is subjective but not speculative as we're drawing an inference from incomplete knowledge. The argument whether Zimmerman used disproportionate force is subjective but not speculative as we're not drawing an inference from incomplete knowledge. And yes most self-defense laws have a level of subjectivity since they are based on things like reasonable appropriateness and whether the person using the force in self-defense was reasonably afraid. Now if there is video showing Keltner trying to reach for Dollof's weapon there would be a case there but I've yet to see that. Also my own view is still what was the timing between the mace being deployed and Dollof firing. I think there could be a defense if Dollof thought it was something lethal and shot before he realized it was mace. At the moment I'm not seeing anything that would show that for sure.
To reiterate. If Dollof had never shot Keltner there would be a good case for assault on against Keltner. I'm not clear from the pics I've seen that Dollof was trying to take Keltner's mace prompting him slapping him. Even if Dollof was it's an open question whether it was appropriate to slap Dollof just for trying reach for his mace. To me this all comes down to appropriate response which is in the CO law and most self-defense laws. Provided that Keltner did assault Dollof with a slap and a mace is lethal force justified? I don't think so.
You are looking at this from a 3rd party perspective like you have stated before we don't know what the shooter was thinking and he definitely was not thinking what the mace would do to the person spraying just how it would affect him. Anyway I am gonna take my leave and wait until other things come out, I just think you are taking the bear mace much to lightly.
New video from the blue-shirt cameraman shows strong evidence that this is wrong. Keltner approached cameramen (not Dolloff), and Dolloff came between with his left arm in a defensive position of cameraman. Latest video highlight the following From the blue-shirt angle we see a photographer in the frame on left, and blue shirt recording Dolloff isn't even in the picture at start, thus behind the the two photographers, which is his role as security. Keltner approaches the two photographers saying "cameras are out ... this isn't a place for cameras ... put those camera's away or i'll [garbled] You see Dolloff left hand come up into a defense position in front of blue-shirt filming. Keltner swipes that hand away first, and then slaps Dolloff. Point #1 Point #2 See video for Keltner walking over while someone (probably him) complaining about cameras. Point #3 Point #4 Two photos of Keltner one motion to swipe away defensive hand, then slap.
You may be right .... but as I said earlier , this boils down to "imminent threat of life and limb" That's the only justification for use of deadly force and law enforcement will get more leeway in that regard than a private citizen. I can't see there being imminent threat.
I used the word "retreated" as he retreated from physical confrontation distance - Stepped away from. That's very clear by the photos of the incident where they are "handfighting" and in the image the man is shot , he's ~10 feet back and spraying mace at the time he's shot. Keltner was an idiot ... but Dollof used deadly force when it wasn't necessary. That's the bottom line.
But we've been told numerous times when police and others killed someone when it wasn't necessary that isn't the bottom line. The bottom line is if the person thought it was necessary. That's all. They only have to be under the mistaken impression that it was necessary and that makes it all okay.
I'm not getting into the argument of police , we all know they get much more leeway than anyone else. Do you think deadly force was justified in this incident ? Was the shooter at risk of death or life altering injury ?
We are not the ones that have to make that judgement it's the person that felt threatened. Do you know if the mace sprayer was not threatening the shooter?
I think lethal force is justified assuming the guy person doing the shooting didn't do anything to provoke the person slapping and macing you. It's really about fear of it escalating to serious bodily injury. As long as the fear is reasonable.
Bullsh!t - Society (We) does make that judgement we'll be the jurors when it comes to trial. Do you feel it was a reasonable response ? He could have simply held him at gunpoint at that 10-12ft distance .... until the police arrived which we saw on the video didn't take more than a few seconds.
