Who is better right now James Harden or Lebron James?

Since words won't convince you, maybe actual footage will. Kindly note what Harden is doing in most of these highlights.

Ok, so Dwight sucked, CP3 was old, and Westbrook was clearly regressing. And those were the best players we could convince to play alongside Harden.

It doesn't matter if they were drafted together. They're no longer on their rookie contracts which means they chose to stay together. Porzingis didn't choose to go to Dallas, but he chose to stay. He just signed an extension with Dallas this past offseason.

It's the only logical conclusion based on our actual acquisitions and the context surrounding those acquisitions/departures.

 

He got 5 points just off of Harden assisting him.

But since you've said Cp3 was arguably more important, maybe film will change your mind. Notice that in these Clips Harden is the one getting more attention. Notice that in these clips, the defender is stunting more at Harden and leaving off of Cp3 in some of these. And again, why are we just counting the wins here? Harden played a more impactful series all around. Harden had a higher points per game for the series and a higher TS% and higher impact metrics as well. Harden for the playoffs also had higher numbers across the board than Cp3 with the efficiency disparity(TS) not being able to account for massive gap in scoring that Hardne provided. So you tell me, who's more important? You tell me who's the real number one guy in this heliocentric offense. LOL.

Lol, dude what? What even is this argument? There are many factors in someone choosing a FA destination. What are you even talking about? Prime Cp3(well the last year of his prime) choosing to come and play here is enough. There are so many different factors in coming to play , money, location, coaching. Its not just black and white "oh, they didnt come here, must not want to play with Harden." How many FAs did Lebron get with him in Cleveland? Lol, what about Kawhi in SA? ....hmmmmmm

Im still really not getting the argument here. You think because they liked the situations they were in, that means that somehow they dont want to play with Harden? How does that make any sense? Like and do you realize Porzingis plays with Luka LOL who holds the ball just as much as Harden. With a similar usage rate and time of possession? And btw how many people have said, they want to leave Houston? How many people have asked out? Dwight left after we tried to trade him multiple times that season. Cp3 never wanted to leave. This is a ridiculous argument once again.

Its not the logical conclusion? It's half assed analysis by someone who thinks he knows more than he does.

 

And in the rest of the video, Harden was largely uninvolved. In fact, in some of the clips, he couldn't be seen because he had retreated out of the camera's shot.

In other words, this statement:

Dont get it twisted by Cp3 making great shots. Harden is the focal point, and Harden has the highest impact in distorting the defense. There is no arguing but about anything because its a false statement.

was wrong.

Nope, it doesn't. Not even remotely.

That's because he has the ball. The ball-handler always gets more attention.

Simply not true. There's a LOT of single coverage.

Because wins are far more important that losses....

It's disturbing that you weren't aware of this.

Not when you consider the fact that we were the only team willing to give CP3 a max contract.

Both Irving and Love signed extensions with Cleveland b/c of Lebron.

I'm saying the only star who wanted to play with Harden for basketball reasons was Dwight, and everyone saw how that turned out. CP3 came because we were the highest bidder.

I think that Luka values Porzingis' experience and ability, and more importantly, he's willing to to be taught (unlike Harden who thought he couldn't learn anything from CP3).

You can continue to make excuses for each star with regards to why they didn't choose Houston. And while you're doing that, I hope you eventually realize how ridiculous you sound.

 

Notice how Cp3 did none of that for Harden. Did you not see Cp3 do the same damn thing in my video where Harden had the ball? Cp3 is amazing, one of my favorite players, he was not the most impactful player that series. Harden's numbers are are all better than Cp3's numbers(especially impact numbers). You giving highlights of a game(in which Harden outperformed Cp3 especially in impact metrics) And those same stats reflect the same thing for the rest of the playoffs as well.

So this statement

"Again, CP3 and Harden played "your turn, my turn". It wasn't heliocentric."

Is wrong.

Well if numbers wont change your mind and film wont, than you are willfully ignorant. And Im just about ready to put you on ignore.

Yea but he receives a lot more attention on ball than Cp3, I guarantee you stopping Harden is the first thing on the Warriors's mind, not CP3.

Do you see how closely they are sticking to Harden as opposed to Cp3? And I didnt say all, I said some. Curry in one play comes straight off Cp3 to stunt on Harden. And I'm sure if you looked at more than just highlights, you would find more examples...sheesh.

That's not how you evaluate performances dude. Your performance losses means a lot too.

It's disturbing that I have to explain to you that ALL games are important and how you perform in all of them matters too. Sheeeeeeesh

We were not the only team that would have offered him the max for the last time. It was HARDEN who recruited Cp3 here to play WITH HIM. There have been multiple reports of Harden recruiting Chris to Houston.

LOL and Irving left because he didnt want to play with him anymore. Irving also might have left AFTER he won the championship, but he decided to give it one more year. But yea congrats he got Love to resign. Cp3>>>>>>Love. Now tell me about Kawhi recruiting people to SA? Tell who Lebron got to go to Cleveland his first time around? Kawhi literally turned down playing with Lebron because he wanted to be the guy.

That's not true. Harden recruited Cp3...I dont know how many time I have to say it. You're so willingly ignorant and Im getting tired of it.

So here, you are making stuff up out of thin air and assuming things you know nothing about. Cool, very consistent I must admit. LMAO Im sure if Luka put up Cp3's numbers last year, hed still be so willing to learn. God straight up comedy.

You can continue to make up facts and narratives out of thin air. Im just about done with you, I think it might be best to just put you on ignore. Goodbye.[/QUOTE]

 

I showed you CP3's highlights where Harden was largely uninvolved in the play. You then showed me Harden highlights where CP3 was largely uninvolved in the play.

And you don't think that's "your turn, my turn"? Seriously?

Both the film and numbers support my argument. Look at their stats in the 3 wins. CP3's numbers were better.

Why should I care if you ignore me? Are we in elementary school? Grow up.

Hard to tell from all that single coverage.

But honestly, the Warrior's should've focused on stopping Harden first. Because if he plays poorly, he'll become disengaged, and it'll snowball to the point where he'll start spamming step back 3s. And at that point, the Rockets are guaranteed to lose.

You mean that play where Harden got by the primary defender Looney? Yes, of course Curry left CP3. There was literally no one between Harden and the basket. At that point, every defender is supposed to abandon their mark and focus on the ball-handler. Why is this basic basketball play such a noteworthy moment for you?

You're not going to argue that the Warriors quintuple-teamed Harden, are you?

All games matter, but wins are FAR more important than losses. Therefore, performances in wins are more valuable than performances in losses.

Build off success, not failure.

Name one other team.

What's your point? He still signed the extension b/c of Lebron. He eventually got tired of Lebron's shadow and left. And last year, he apologized to Lebron for his immaturity.

Why would Kawhi want to recruit anyone to SA? He didn't even want to be in SA himself. But he recruited Paul George to the Clippers.

Forgive me for not blindly accepting your words as truth. If you can provide proof that other teams were willing to offer a max contract to CP3, then I'll drop it.

 

Im gonna explain it to you, one last time. Heliocentric offense doent exclude my turn your turn. Heliocentric offense is when the majority of the offense is run through your best player. Get that through your head.

Okay dude, you wanna do this fine. Game 2: Harden 27 points 3 assists, Cp3 16 points 6 assists, TS for Harden 51 TS%, CP3: 52 TS%.BPM difference, negligible. Okay....so I'll take the massive amount in point difference for that one difference in TS%, that game goes to Harden. Game 4 Harden 30 points 4 asissts, 53 TS%, BPM 11.7 Cp3 27 points, 4 assists. 62 TS% BPM: 5.6. Harden seems to have a higher impact on the game for the team. This game goes to Harden still imo but at best, you give it a draw. I wont post the numbers for game 5 because I will concede that Cp3 was largely the better that game. So no, the numbers and film do not in fact support your argument. Especially when you bring in the stats for the rest of the games, Harden was the better player this series as a whole. You dont get discount the rest of the games because they were losses, that's now how evaluation of performance goes at all.

You're right you shoulndt. But your arguments are at grade school level though.

Yea because simple highlights dont really give you a full picture on how truly impactful someone was in the game. Harden was the biggest concern for the Warriors. It was like that in 2018 and in 2019.

They focus on Harden first because he was the MVP and the best player on the team. The offense runs through Harden. He didnt become disengaged on poor shooting nights this year. That's not what happend this year, nor last year. Even two years ago during the Warriors series he was playing good defense. But go off though lol.

Because that play doenst happen for Harden. They dont help off him. And why would every defender have to come off their marks to stop the ball handler? Thats not even true. Thats to illustrate my point that the defense is MUCH more worried about Harden than they were about Cp3. And these are just highlights if you watch the actual game, that picture will get even more clear for you. The fact that you think think simple scoring highlights will illustrate your point of who the defense was really focused tells me enough about your arguments.

That's not how it works. You are evaluated in how you performed in ALL games. You don't get to just write off games just because you lost them. You learn from them and you build on them. You don't evaluate a player's performance in a series based solely on wins that's stupid and doesnt give the full context.

You learn more from failure than you do from success.

Spurs could have offered him the max. They had the cap space. Paul wasnt a FA for very long. He chose Houston very very quickly. And if you dont believe me that James Harden recruited Chris Paul.

https://hoopshype.com/2017/06/29/james-harden-chris-paul-trade-rockets-recruiting/

So any arguments about Chris Paul wanting to come here solely because of the max is untrue. But also....we never even offered him a max. We gave him a chance to get a max after this one year deal. He actually took less money opting in for the Clippers in that one year deal. He took a financial risk coming to play with us.

My point is, he was already getting tired of Lebron before they won their first championship and WAS STILL deciding on wether to leave even after they won it. LOL yea he apologized but he also chose not to go to LA and play with Lebron. Hmmmm.....if Lebron was so great, Kyrie definitely should have gone back and played with him right?

This was before the whole quad injury debacle, he wanted to be there still, but he also got no good players to come to San Antonio during the FA chase in 2017. Couldnt get Paul George to come to San Antonio.....but definitely could get him out of Oaklahoma and play in LA....hmmmm....its almost as if location matters in these FA destinations.

Literally just gave you a link about Paul wanting to play with Harden. Paul was determined as WOJ put it to play with Harden and vice versa. Paul wasnt even in FA long enough for him to get offers from other teams. He could played one last year with the Clippers and then taken a max elsewhere. So there is your proof, but I know what you'll do, you'll again completely make this about money despite the fact that I've given you evidence of Paul wanting to play with Harden as early as the year before he opted out of his contract.

 

A heliocentric offense excludes "your turn my turn" at the levels that Harden/CP3 were playing Get that through your head.

Game 4 clearly goes to CP3. Not really sure how you can argue that. He shot much better than Harden. Harden shot 3-12 from the 3pt line. Harden played great. CP3 played better.

CP3 was the heart and soul of the 2018 team. We all know it. To claim otherwise is revisionist history.

Again, it was a your-turn-my-turn offense. How can you deny this fact? You saw the videos. You even posted videos corroborating this. But go ahead denying the obvious.

Absolutely wrong. The closest help defender should help regardless of his mark. That's basic basketball.

Again, build off success, not failure. Not sure how you can argue against that.

Yes. Make changes until you succeed. And build off that success.

They could have offered him the max, but they didn't. Not sure how that helps your argument.

Then why did we offer him the max? We were bidding against ourselves. It's widely believed that we promised it to him as part of his recruitment.

And we didn't offer him a 4 year, $160m contract? That sure is weird, because he was able to sign one with us...

Why? He already won as Lebron's sidekick.

In any case, Irving signed the extension with Cleveland because of Lebron.

You mean the offseason after he got hurt? Kawhi played 9 games in the 2017-2018 season. Maybe by then, Kawhi had already decided to leave San Antonio,

Are you familiar with the phrase "lip service"?

By then, wasn't he on bad terms with the Clippers? And again, who was going to offer a max contract to a 33 year old Chris Paul?

 

It does not exclude your turn, my turn. Also Harden had the ball more than Cp3, significantly so, higher usage rate and time of possession. Doest work that way, Harden is ahead on both counts. Harden's usage rate was WAY higher than Cp3s.

Not if you go the impact metrics which I gave to you. Like I said Harden distorts defenses more than Cp3. At best, you call it a draw, because the BPM has Harden way ahead.

He was the second option and performed like one. Harden had a better playoffs that year overall and ever advanced metric supports that. Cp3's has higher TS% but its not enough to account for the massive point discrepancy between the two. Harden was the best play player on our team in every playoff series.

Because again, "your turn, my turn" doesnt mean you dont run a heliocentric offense....sheesh man, how many times do I have get it through to you.

LOL, dude more often than not you should never help off of James Harden and leave him open, that's just common sense.

You're just ignoring what I'm saying when you evaluate player performance, thats now how this works.

K, you are straight up not listening to me now.

He didnt even meet with them. He chose Houston before anyone else. He chose Houston very VERY early. It helps my argument because he could tested the FA market with other teams who could have given him the max, not just San Antonio.

We offered him the max because we didnt want him to leave after having our best franchise season. According to who there was a wink wink deal? Where is your report for that? ...Lol nvm, just looked it up. LOL Chris Broussard is your source...LMAO alright dude. So you have no evidence of a wink wink deal. Chris Paul for sure knew he could still sign a max but he also took a risk signing with the Rockets when he had other options on the table most likely.

Im talking about initially before his first year in Houston. Paul most likely knew he could get the super max after a year in Houston but that doesnt mean money was the sole reason he came to play in Houston. He picked Houston first before anyone else. He could have made a sign and trade deal with other teams.

So now he's going to be Durant's sidekick.

And he left because of him and chose not to play with him agian.

So your speculating without having any evidence here. Okay, got it. The consensus opinion on this was, that Kawhi did not like how the Spurs handled his quad injury and that was one of the main factors in him leaving the Spurs. Chris Paul wasnt the only FA on the market either, San Antonio coulndt get good pieces to come play there despite having cap space. They got Rudy Gay LOL. So yea...location matters.

So money,location, and coaching only matter when its not Harden huh...interesting. LOL even when the reports came from Woj himself about Harden recruiting Paul as early as the year prior. My sources from Woj are better than trash speculation from Broussard. Do you think money was the sole reason Cp3 came to play here? Or do you think money isnt important when it comes to other superstars? When is the last time you've seen a Superstar take a pay cut to play with Lebron or Kawhi? Durant took a slight pay cut to play with the Warriors and then signed a max for two years right after. These are such goofy arguments.

If he played amazingly the last year on the Clippers, its not certain they would not have offered him the max. And yes, there are teams out there that would have given it to him if he performed like he did with us. Again, you only make it soley about money when it comes to Harden. Despite me giving you evidence that Harden recruited and despite evidence that guys dont take pay cuts like that even to play together. Cp3 wanted to play with Harden.

 

Sorry, but you're contradicting yourself. You earlier said:

Heliocentric means running the majority of your offense through your best player and that is what we did.

Under your definition, if Harden runs the offense 51% of the time and CP3 49% of the time, that's a heliocentric offense centering around Harden. No one in their right mind would agree with you.

Sorry, but you're absolutely wrong here, and it's laughable. Look at those CP3 highlights again. Harden is continually disengaged from the play and has zero impact on defenses. ZERO.

If your "impact metrics" tell you otherwise, then they're useless metrics.

Of course Harden had a better playoffs overall. He excels at beating up on underdog teams. But against our wins against the Warriors, CP3 was more impactful.

Sorry, but you're absolutely wrong. If the choice is between an open James Harden 3pt attempt and a dunk/layup by another Rockets player, the defense should allow the Harden 3 every single time. Every. Single. Time.

This is basic basketball.

It doesn't help your argument at all, and you're going through some crazy mental gymnastics to think it does.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...chris-paulsan-antonio-spurs-free-agency-noise

You really think another team was going to offer a 33 year old Chris Paul anything close to $160m/4 years? In that case, would you like to buy some magic beans?

A wink-wink deal is the only thing that makes sense. Don't forget.....he was 33 years old.

Seriously.....don't take everything at face value. Use some critical thinking.

I'm still waiting for proof. A team having the necessary cap space doesn't cut it.

Durant's shadow is a lot smaller than Lebron's.

Who cares? You asked which free agents chose to play with Lebron in Cleveland. You got your answer. Irving and Love. It doesn't matter that Irving eventually left after winning a ring with Lebron. What matters is that he chose to stay and play with Lebron in the first place.

It's shocking how many of your takes are contrary to common sense. Do you really expect Kawhi to have gone recruiting the during an injured offseason? And then holding it against him when he didn't?

REALLY?

From a basketball perspective, it didn't make sense to sign a 33 year old CP3 to a super max contract. I definitely think that CP3's first priority was the money. Ever heard of the "Chris Paul Rule" with regards to the 2016 collective bargaining agreement?

Yet you're unable to list a single one. And you're ignoring the fact that the relationship between CP3 and Doc Rivers was fractured, and the Clippers chose Doc Rivers. There's zero chance CP3 would've re-signed with them.

Harden/CP3 had clashing personalities and different ideas on how the offense should run. When the trade was first announced, people questioned whether or not they could co-exist, and their relationship fell apart in the second year. To me, money is the only explanation why CP3 chose Houston.

 

Some awesome debating going on in here.

Single or limited highlights used to portray what’s always happening on the floor.

Ignoring of statistical fact because....well someone just doesn’t agree with them.

Guessing on what players and other teams were thinking at certain points in the past.

Top notch stuff.

 

You mean CP3 full game highlights? Do you really think that I picked an outlier game and the other games were played differently?

I'm not ignoring statistical facts. I'm arguing against someone's interpretation of their meaning. There's a big difference.

Speculating on thought processes at the time since we have the benefit of hindsight.

It sounds like you'd be interested in buying some magic beans.

 

Oh and as far as impact in the Rockets/Warriors series wins in 2018

Game 2 Game scores

Harden : 14.7
Paul : 12.0

Game 4 Game scores

Harden : 22.2
Paul : 16.0

Game 5 Game scores

Harden : 5.2
Paul : 17.6

Series Game score

Harden : 18.6
Paul : 14.4

You are dreaming if you believe Paul was the more impactful player in that series.

 

Solid work on identifying who you are in the debate.

 

Ya I wouldn't make that argument either. Harden definitely was more important than CP3 in terms of offensive as defenses gameplan for him more. However CP3 did inject a certain grit to this team that the team didn't have. With CP3 we didn't fall apart in the final minutes of a close playoff game like we do when it's Harden controlling the game. I think CP3 was also the vocal leader that got the Rockets to play elite defense that year. Remember our defense was why we took the Warriors to 7. Because our offense was pretty inefficient in the WCF.

 

that explains all the titles cp3 has won when not playing with the rockets.

 

CP3 isn't as gifted as Harden. He has a better mentality for the game but he doesn't have Harden's size and strength.

Also CP3 is far less durable than Harden and is a large reason why he's never reached the finals. He gets injuried too often late in the season.

 

Against the Warriors in 2018, we had 3 wins (games 2, 4, 5). Game 2 belonged to Harden. Game 5 belonged to CP3. So what about game 4?

In game 4, with 10 minutes left in the 4th quarter, we were down by 7 points. At that point, Harden checked in, and both he and CP3 would close out the game. In those final 10 minutes, the Rockets outscored the Warriors by 10 points and won by 3. During that span, CP3 had 6 points, 2 assists, and 2 rebounds. Harden had 2 points and 0 rebounds/assists.

CP3 was more impactful than Harden.

 

LeBron is better now at Year 17 than Harden has ever been. This is not to diminish Harden, but it's no comparison.

 

I'd say Harden, but LeBron still has the ability to change the outcome of a game with ease that Harden doesn't have(Usually needs really difficult shot making or rely on calls he just wont get in the playoffs). LeBron also has it in him to play elite, lock down defense for brief moments, which Harden doesn't have. A lot of what we see, ie: Bron getting to barrel his way to an easy layup or allowed to play really physical defense in the critical moments of a game is largely due to legacy and his marketability and likability in the league. Harden has none of that and will never have that. So i believe Harden is the better talent today, but those perks that comes with the name LeBron helps LeBron be LeBron the recruiter and LeBron the guy who lives in the Finals.
I tell you what though, if Harden had all the talent LeBron has had throughout his career, he'd probably have same amount of rings that LeBron currently has and about to win minus the Warriors win, but + the Mavs loss. Flip those series and Harden would have 3 on his way to 4 next to AD and great role players. People talk about LeBron's ability to lead those early "bad' Cavs teams but i believe Harden could have led those teams deep in that conference just the same. All in all, 1 trip to the Finals where he was swept and 1 trip to the ECF where he lost to Dwert was his legacy before jumping to Miami and becoming a career mercenary. I think Harden could have got the same results or better with those Cavs. Harden even beats Orlando IMO. ---the real turning point people miss- KG and Allen to the C's. LeBron gave up that last series and said i can do the same and build super teams and that's been the blueprint since, but KG and Allen paid their dues and were in their 30s. LeBron was 25. Chump.

 

The one who is still playing.