I think the problem is reading their statement along with what Mafred claims are two totally different stories. It is so funny how manfreds big long lie in his statement starts with "I think [...]." You just cant make this stuff up
Spoiler Time for the Astros to stop claiming their 2017 World Series title was legitimate. For owner Jim Crane, shortstop Carlos Correa and every other Astros person to stop saying they won the Series, as Correa put it to me in our interview on MLB Network on Saturday, “fair and square.” Commissioner Rob Manfred laid waste to that assertion in his latest news conference on Tuesday night, citing “statements from players” as the basis of baseball’s finding that the Astros used their trash-can banging scheme during the 2017 postseason. We’ll never know precisely the advantage the Astros gained. Which is why their accomplishments are forever in doubt. If the Astros want to move on, they need to abandon the notion that the ‘17 World Series title was, to quote Correa again, a championship they “earned.” For the sport to move on, the entire Houston organization needs to finally admit that the trophy — that famous, quite meaningful piece of metal — was not entirely the product of honest work. Manfred admitted at his previous news conference on Sunday that he thought about stripping the Astros of their title, and spent considerable time on the subject before ultimately — and properly — deciding against it. As I’ve written previously, rewriting history is a slippery slope. But the mere contemplation of it by Manfred, an attorney well-versed in the value of precedent, is damning in itself. Not that anyone at this point is especially convinced by the Astros’ hubris. As one rival executive put it, “The idea that baseball has to strip the Astros of their ’17 title — it’s been stripped.” Or, as another exec said, “If they keep laying claim to ’17, they will keep getting hammered.” Manfred actually revealed nothing new about the Astros’ misconduct on Tuesday. He previously wrote in his report announcing the Astros’ penalties that the team had cheated for the remainder of the regular season and throughout the postseason after he had punished the Red Sox and Yankees for conduct related to electronic sign stealing — and put the entire sport on notice — in September 2017. The report stated that the Astros, “continued to both utilize the replay review room and the monitor located next to the dugout to decode signs for the remainder of the regular season and throughout the postseason.” The monitor next to the dugout was the conduit for the trash-can banging system, showing a live feed from the center-field camera, fixed on the opposing catcher’s signs. Frankly, I should have interrupted Correa during our interview to remind him of what the report said about Astros’ rule-breaking during the 2017 postseason, just as I had stopped him earlier to remind him that the team had cheated in 2018 as well as ’17, according to MLB’s findings. No Astros player has denied using the trash-can banging system during the playoffs, but Correa had said in a previous interview that opponents that October used multiple sets of signs, making them difficult for the Astros to decode. The banging scheme also might not have been as effective in a stadium as loud as Minute Maid Park, perhaps explaining Correa’s belief that the Astros would have won, anyway. But Manfred said unequivocally that the Astros used the system in October 2017. The attempt was there. “The garbage-can signaling went on in the postseason,” Manfred said. “There was conflicting evidence on that point. But in any investigation, you often have conflicting evidence. It was my view that the more credible evidence was that they continued to use the scheme in the postseason.” Not quite the narrative we’re getting from the Astros, is it? Crane promised they would apologize as a group. The remaining members of the 2017 team met on the eve of the team’s first spring workout, ostensibly to get their stories straight. And, of course, the Astros botched it, just as they’ve botched virtually every public-relations challenge dating to their trade for Roberto Osuna, a pitcher who had been suspended 75 games for violating baseball’s domestic-violence policy, on July 31, 2018. The problem this time was exacerbated by Crane’s embarrassing showing at the Astros’ “apology” news conference last Thursday, when he refused to use the word “cheating” and said of the team’s rule-breaking, “Our opinion is this didn’t impact the game. We had a good team. We won the World Series, and we’ll leave it at that.” Crane walked the comment back moments later, saying, “I didn’t say it didn’t impact the game.” But in that sequence, he helped trigger the anger that continues to ricochet throughout baseball and damage the game. A rival executive summed up Crane’s mentality thusly: “Deny, deny, deny. F—- it. We’re the champs.” Manfred apologized at his news conference on Tuesday for referring to the World Series trophy as “a piece of metal,” saying his comment was “disrespectful.” (Agent Scott Boras said, “Telling the players the World Series trophy is a piece of metal is like telling a mountain climber Mt. Everest is a hill.”) Where is Crane’s apology for his comments at the news conference? When will he show humility and grace, contrition for presiding over an organization that developed a toxic, win-at-all-costs culture? Correa, at least, acknowledged that the Astros were at an advantage when they knew which pitches were coming, that “everything that happened (in 2017) was absolutely wrong,” that the team must accept all criticism and judgment and “take that on the chin.” But the best answer about the legitimacy of the Astros’ 2017 title came from former manager AJ Hinch earlier this month, after MLB Network’s Tom Verducci asked him if the championship was “tainted.” Hinch, unwilling to dismiss the accomplishments of his team entirely, did not give an emphatic “yes.” But for all his own failings, he again acted as the adult in the room with his response, providing a road map for others to follow in a time of crisis. “It’s a fair question,” Hinch said. “I think everyone is going to have to draw their own conclusion. I hope over time, and with the demonstration of the talents of this team, the players, the careers that are being had — we have some of the best players in the entire sport, on the same team — I hope over time it’s proven that it wasn’t. “… Unfortunately, we opened that door as a group and that question, we may never know. We’re going to have to live and move forward and be better in the sport. Unfortunately, no one can really answer that question. I can’t pinpoint what advantages, what exactly would have happened otherwise. But we did it to ourselves.” The Astros need to own that, once and for all.
Hi Ken, first time caller. Three months ago you claimed this was part of a much broader issue in baseball. Why have you abandoned this statement?
Then the Yankees need to admit the ‘90s wins weren’t legitimate either. Bonds needs to admit those home runs weren’t honest work either. Seriously **** the media.
last bit of this interview was interesting "There has been a self-selected bifurcation of the MLBPA, where 1160 members of it's are against the Houston Astros and you got 40 guys standing alone." Is this bad?
Spoiler WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — A Major League Baseball official on Tuesday night said the league wants the Players Association to publicly take a stand: Should players be subject to discipline for electronic sign stealing? The two sides are actively working on a new electronic sign-stealing policy for the 2020 season. The official would only speak anonymously because of the sensitive nature of the discussions. “Written proposals have been exchanged, and we have made it clear to MLB that no issue is off the table, including player discipline,” MLBPA executive director Tony Clark said in a lengthy statement issued on Tuesday night, signaling open-mindedness on the matter. But when proposals were exchanged last week, people with direct knowledge of the offer said the union’s initial offer did not include player discipline, while the league’s did. Multiple people involved in the discussions, however, pointed out it was only a first proposal, and that there were other parameters to focus on as well. The sides are relatively close in terms of what video access players should have in-game, although the league has thus far proposed greater restrictions to that end, the official said. MLB may be attempting to highlight the union’s stance on player discipline — during the Astros investigation and moving forward — to show it is not making decisions in a vacuum. In effect, the league may feel it is unfairly alone in the public’s crosshairs. Commissioner Rob Manfred is under siege for his handling of the Astros investigation, including his decision not to pursue punishment for Astros players. That decision was influenced by labor relations, as previously reported by The Athletic. Entering the Astros investigation, MLB had said it would hold club officials, not players, responsible for acts of electronic sign stealing. Perhaps most important, the league and union did not have an agreement in place as to how players could be punished. The union on Tuesday night confirmed it would have fought to defend Astros players had the league decided to pursue punishment. “The applicable rules did not allow for player discipline because even if they did, players were never notified of the rules to begin with, and because in past cases involving electronic sign stealing, MLB had stated that club personnel were responsible for ensuring compliance with the rules,” the MLBPA said. But, in fitting with all the other chaos surrounding the Astros mess, the two sides are sniping at each other over how the investigation unfolded. Manfred irked the union on Tuesday in a press conference in Arizona in which he said MLB made a proposal to the union to conduct the Astros investigation without offering players blanket immunity. “Our early efforts were not particularly successful in terms of making progress with the investigation,” Manfred said. “My office then contacted the MLBPA to request player cooperation. We wanted players to submit to interviews. The MLBPA asked if we had a disciplinary intention. I think the response was that we could not rule that out. The union indicated to us that that would be a problem. We went back and suggested to them we would give them an initial list of people, players, that we would grant immunity to, preserving our ability to discipline other players. “The union came back and said that players would cooperate only if there was blanket immunity. And because we were at a bit of a stalemate, we knew we needed player witnesses, we agreed to that immunity agreement. And let me be clear: We would not have gotten where we got in terms of understanding the facts, learning the facts, disclosing the facts, if we hadn’t reached that agreement. So, I’m not being critical of anyone. But the fact of the matter is the union wanted an immunity agreement to protect their members. That’s how we got there.” A league official elaborated, saying MLB compiled a list of five or six players it targeted for immunity. Three or four of those players were retired, the official said. The MLBPA disputed Manfred’s account in a statement sent shortly before midnight: “MLB said from the outset that it was not its intention to discipline players.” “The Association on Nov. 13 sought and received confirmation from the league that the players interviewed and any other players would not be disciplined in connection with the allegations made in the article,” Clark said in the statement. “We received that confirmation promptly on the evening of Nov. 13, and the player interviews began days later. “Any suggestion that the Association failed to cooperate with the Commissioner’s investigation, obstructed the investigation, or otherwise took positions which led to a stalemate in the investigation is completely untrue. We acted to protect the rights of our members, as is our obligation under the law.” It would not be surprising for the union to push for blanket immunity — in fact, it is what one would expect the union to do as it seeks to protect its membership. But the union believes Manfred raised the topic as a device, in essence, to sway public opinion on the perceived failings of the disciplinary process. Clark on Wednesday morning is scheduled to visit Mets camp as the union’s annual tour across spring training begins. There, he is expected to speak to the media at length for the first time since MLB released its findings in the Astros investigation. “This is a pivotal time for our game, and these are critically important issues,” Clark said in his statement Tuesday night. “How the parties handle the next several weeks will significantly affect what our game looks like for the next several decades. The opportunity is now to forge a new path forward.”
I'm at that stage already. Take the darn title. Houston fans will still think we are champions that year; the rest of baseball thinks we didn't deserve it, or see an asterisk by the WS title anyway. The truth is... that wouldn't satisfy the critics anyway. If you take away the title... they would then say the players need to be suspended, that the team would have to lose more draft picks, that the team should be disqualified for more playoffs. Heck... if you agreed to all that... they would say the players should be banned. Heck... they'd want them killed if banning wasn't good enough. But at this point... take the rings away. I am seriously losing interest in MLB anyway. Unless they also punish the other teams that cheated... the hypocrisy of only targeting Houston while protecting BOS, NYY and others "for the good of baseball" makes me want to say screw it all.
At this point, I could probably be tempted with a "strip the title but Altuve's reputation is restored" swap. I know of course that would never happen, but the hit to Altuve is really what keeps me up at night. We've seen what irresponsible journalist speculation can do to HOF cases with Biggio & Bagwell, and now Altuve is being punished as the face of this whole thing simply because he was the team's best player. Nobody held anyone in the steroid era to the "he didn't stop his teammates from cheating so he's guilty as well" standard, but you know they'll ding Altuve for it.
Me too bro. It's unhealthy to stay defensive and get angry at all these people in social media and the only people I can blame are the Astros. I mean I love my Houston teams but they put their foot's in their mouths as an origination. I feel bad for the players and especially Altuve. People are not thinking about the impact this will have on the HOF possibilities for our players and it's all sad. This sucks all around.
If they strip the title, people will complain about no suspensions. If they suspend players, people will complain that they aren't banned for life. If they are banned for life, people will complain the organization should face harsher penalties. If they give harsher penalties, people will complain about criminal charges for ruining the game. It will always be something for these holier than thou types they've let control the media. This is the peak of the whining. Nothing else is going on in the sports scene, and all of the players and media are congregating for the first time since the scandal. This story won't go away for us this season, it will always be there, but once we ride this out it will fade out of the headlines like sports stories always do.
If baseball is serious about stripping titles, then the precedent should be set with the 1919 Reds title and actual guidelines set on what constitutes that action. The outcome of those 8 games can be proven to have been changed based on illegal actions of the players. What "should" or what would have happened if electronic devices were not used in 2017 will never be known and cannot be definitely proven. Both the Yankees and Red Sox were fined for similar actions during the 2017 season. Should their wins that season be vacated as well? Can we be sure that they would have made the playoffs that year otherwise? It is too convoluted to draw any reasonable conclusion. In 20 years my hope is that this will have reached the level of the steroid era WS titles. Yes, viewed with skepticism, but still champions nonetheless.
Apologize for nothing. Give back nothing. That's just giving into the mob & what they want. Red Sox/Red Sox fans will not be apologizing, saying "Man, we should really strip our '18 title & give back our rings" when the report comes out next week (even if it's "less" than what the Astros did). Yankees/Yankees fans aren't apologizing for their steroid championships. Everyone can keep pretending their/the other 29 clubhouses are clean. Yankees can keep pretending they're clean & do everything the "right way". Chris Young "learned" it or got the idea from NY, Carlos Beltran ... "No, nothing dirty going on here. No, not at all."
Worst thing is fellas, Manfred will leave soon and when he does his replacement will strip the Astros title. Might as well prepare for it now. You know damn well if Adam Silver were the commish he'd strip it. Sorry but I say hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Stros need to go out and get another this year and make winning it even sweeter than in 17.
Nobody is stripping the title. At the core of this is the combination of Crane and Luhnow being widely disliked and Houston being at odds with the success of the Yankees and Dodgers. But that only goes so far. Everyone knows there’s plenty of evidence to implicate most of the league in some form of cheating, so this media firestorm is the peak of it. There will be no player suspensions, no official asterisks, no stripping of trophies or awards. Once the Red Sox punishment comes out a significant amount of attention will be diverted. And once the season starts it will largely be forgotten until the playoffs, at which point it will be completely revived. But after this season it will be mostly forgotten. If Altuve reaches 3000 hits, he will be in the hall of fame. Correa and Bregman HoF cases will also be unaffected by this given how early it is in their careers. Im quite surprised the MLBPA hasn’t internally communicated to the opposing players to stop talking about it. All they’re doing is encouraging MLB to avoid granting immunity in the future, which none of the players should want. I am also expecting, at some point, that Luhnow will have a lot more to say. He’s too smart to go out like this (although he’s obviously not as smart as I thought he was). At a minimum I would expect a book deal that tells what they knew/heard about what other teams were doing. But it would not shock me to see Luhnow file suit against MLB. Funny thing is the most lasting impact of this whole ordeal might end up being Manfred getting fired.
