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Lebron chokes again

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Rockets Pride, Feb 13, 2011.

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  1. KingLeoric

    KingLeoric Member

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    Appreciated. I was mostly talking about this year alone using other teams as a reference to evaluate how good GS actually is. It's not GS was too good, it's just Cavs sucked too bad.

    Ohh didnt see you quote anyone so had no idea who u were replilying to.
     
  2. KingLeoric

    KingLeoric Member

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    Probably afraid of Durant’s mortal strike.
     
  3. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    My fault. I forgot to quote.
     
  4. KingLeoric

    KingLeoric Member

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    Pity all the advanced technology, training and globalization could not improve players’ FT%
     
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  5. hakeemthagreat

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    How weak was his cast? Love is a all-star caliber player. Kyle Kover is one of the best 3-point shooters, Rodney Hood is an up-and-coming player with potential. Yes GS should've won the series. But that's no excuse for the best player on the planet to quit. Lebron had his chances to steal a few games but chose to defer. He has a history of deferring in crucial finals moments. Does that warrant top 5 consideration?
     
  6. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    I don’t care about “moments”. Here’s a guy who has carried his team to the Finals 8 years in a row — unprecedented in the modern era — and he gets penalized for losing games in the Finals. A lesser player who doesn’t even take his team to the Finals would be saved from such scrutiny.

    By any reasonable standard, he is a top 5 player of all time. As in: if I could pick a player at the start of their careers to build a team around, with the goal of maximizing the number of championships won over his career, there are not 5 other players I would select ahead of him. You obviously have a different opinion. So, who are the five players you would pick ahead of him?
     
  7. hakeemthagreat

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    You don't care about moments? Well you probably should. It's easy to look at boxscore numbers and say "well, Lebron had another triple double. we'll give him a pass for losing". But him not scoring in overtime doesn't matter? Him not wanting to guard Kevin Durant in a CRUCIAL moment doesn't matter? Him passing to George Hill with Steph guarding him (in a CRUCIAL moment of the game) doesn't mean anything? The "scrutiny" you think he gets is all self inflicted. He labeled himself the "King" last time I checked. He anointed HIMSELF on the Mount Rushmore of NBA greats. He continuously tries to control media narratives & seeks unnecessary attention ("The Decision", the arm cast after game 4) all while avoiding full responsibility when he loses. Lebron is the first superstar in NBA HISTORY that is celebrated by his fans no matter how many times he loses. So he's playing with house money lol. His fans will ALWAYS have a template of excuses they'll throw out there if he fails, "his teammates suck", "the coach sucks", "he was tired", "he was injured", "it was Kyrie's fault" etc...Since when is "getting to the finals 8 years" in a row accomplishment? The East is trash. "Getting to the finals" means nothing lol.


    MJ
    Hakeem
    Kareem
    Magic
    Kobe
     
  8. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Contributing Member

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    Criticizing LeBron like this is ridiculous. He had a 50 point game in Game 1 against GSW and they should have won save some questionable calls late in the game and JR Smith's irredeemable stupidity. LBJ punched a whiteboard in frustration (criticize him if you want for lack of restraint here) and played the rest of the finals with a very injured hand.

    Even after 15 seasons he might be the best player in the NBA. Top 3 at worst. Surrounded by second-raters. And yet this damned thread surfaces every time he doesn't win a championship. Since 2011.

    It's almost personal here. No wonder Harden gets so much hate. "Yeah, well, he didn't win it all. Loser. Total."
     
  9. KingLeoric

    KingLeoric Member

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    Hey interesting question, though based on the nature of this question, there has to be opinions involved but I will try my best to back them up with facts.

    I am going to use Duncan for comparison. Even though many people probably has Lebron ranked ahead of Duncan in the all time list, if I was a franchise owner there is no way I would pick Lebron to build around instead of Duncan. Here are my opinions based on evidence:
    • Lebron lacks loyalty. He has a record of leaving the team when things go south, probably because of his lifetime quest for the "GOAT" he put his personal success ahead of other things, which is perfectly reasonable from a player perspective but not from a owner's perspective. (He did eventually deliver 1 championship to the Cavs which is a great accomplishment.) Where Duncan sticked with his team through many ups and downs going through being swept multiple times and multiple first round exists and ended up winning 5 championships together.
    • Lebron makes GM's job difficult. Partially because of his lack of loyalty, his team is constantly stuck in "win now" mode with no room to operate for future seasons, so when he actually leaves, the franchise is screwed. He also gets involved in signing of other players (and even the coach), again not good from a owner's perspective.
    • Lebron makes coach and other players jobs difficult. Lots of people say "Lebron makes everyone around him better", but in reality many players became significantly worse when they started playing with Lebron. Some over a span of years, some just put on the same jersey as Lebron and instantly became trash. Lebron plays his own system which everyone needs to try to fit in (Remember what Bosh's warning to Kevin Love? https://www.foxsports.com/nba/story...g-with-lebron-is-extremely-frustrating-101014). Everyone and the team as a whole tend to under perform in this system except for himself.
    Lebron brought Cavs 1 championship but this era is remembered by many as Lebron dragging a trash franchise with trash teammates and trash coaches. Spurs and Popovich had no championships before Duncan era yet they worked together for almost 20 years to form a successful and respectful dynasty with 5 championships, and the core members in or going into Hall of Fame. I would much rather be in Spurs shoes than the Cavs'.

    Edit: sorry I realized I didn't really give an answer to the original question. If I was an owner, I would likely to take players like Duncan, MJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Hakeem over Lebron to name a few.
     
    #2989 KingLeoric, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  10. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

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    What ROXTXIA said - LeBron scores 50 on the road in Game 1 and leads his team to what should have been a victory only to see it taken away by the mind-numbingly idiotic JR Smith which led to him punching a white board and injuring his hand. To his credit, LeBron kept playing and didn't use the injury as an excuse but the series was OVER when Game 1 ended with a Warriors win - a game they should have NEVER won.
     
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  11. rhino17

    rhino17 Member

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    You can'y choke when a sweep was considered by everyone to be the most likely scenario
     
  12. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Contributing Member

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    duncan stuck with the spurs through ups and ups. which day was the down day? he got drafted to a team that won 59 games 2 years before. maybe they weren't quite that good 2 year later, but they also just added arguably the greatest coach ever. he got a title in 2 years. of course he was loyal. things were already great. and even then he almost left for orlando in his first free agency. people forget that.

    after that they won 3 more titles and by then he was a living legend in a city that loved him, playing for maybe the greatest coach ever, on the smartest franchise that kept adding great players around him. they also afforded him the chance to play lower minutes into his 30's to extend his career. that's why he stayed. because it was perfect. same reason bird and magic never left. same reason jordan never left (also free agency wasn't what it is today).

    lebron had mo williams, delonte west, and mike brown and the whole world calling him a loser. it's no wonder he left (although it's crazy to think he was only 25 at the time of The Decision). at that point i think the course of his career was kind of set. he was in catch up mode for titles. no more waiting around for the team to figure things out. he decided he had to make his own luck. i'm sure if he got drafted by san antonio he would have no problem staying for 20 years of fantastic surrounding talent, management and coaching.

    most teams are in win now mode once they get good. eventually salaries and age catch up to you.

    just about the only ones that aren't in "win now" mode are those that get young, foundational pieces where it works out almost right away (i.e. they are already winning now). bird/mchale/parish were all together very young. magic and worthy drafted 3 years apart and had kareem even before worthy. the warriors have all young players who they drafted and can just keep being smart. the spurs got parker and ginobili with late first and second round picks which enabled them to never have to do anything risky during the duncan era (like give gasol and aldridge big contracts now that they haven't replenished their talent as well as before).

    the cavs had 7 years to do something smart around lebron and they ultimately failed. like i said, at that point lebron can't wait around for teams to "build the right way." waiting 3 years to see if your team is smart and they build a lasting winner or if they are stupid and build you a 48 win team means lebron could waste another good chunk of his career after 7 years were wasted.


    kyrie had great stats next to lebron. wade did as well. bosh's role changed because you simply aren't going to go to bosh with lebron/wade on the team, but he still was a good fit on offense. kevin love before this year has usually been very valuable to the cavs offense even if his individual numbers don't show it. if lebron's "system" doesn't get love the ball for points but love's 3 point spacing results in the most efficient offense in playoff history like last year, then is it wrong to play that system? the main reason love isn't nearly the star people like to claim is because you simply can't play slow big men on defense any more. he gets injured for games 6 and 7 against boston and cleveland almost looks better with jeff green. jeff green! simply because jeff green can switch.

    this year's cavs team seems to be about the first team where lebron's teammates didn't seem to know how to play offense in the playoffs. they literally had the best offense after the all-star break. then hood/clarkson/smith just cratered, with clarkson being basically as inefficient as you can possibly be as an nba player.

    pop wasn't there coach before duncan except the end of the tanking season that got duncan. and the spurs won 62 and 59 right before that.


    out of those, only hakeem had his career wasted like lebron. and hakeem may have faked an injury to try to get traded after we were mediocre long enough. everyone gets tired of it eventually.
     
  13. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    Geez. Hell of a post
     
  14. KingLeoric

    KingLeoric Member

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    ^ lol yea very long and informative post, appreciated! This is too much to edit on my phone, I’ll try to find some time to write a proper reply soon.
     
  15. RHU525

    RHU525 Member
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    Lmao at Kobe. You complain that Lebron quit on his team. Go back and watch Kobe without Shaq and Gasol. Game 7 vs suns he didn’t even take a shot in second half. Completely quit and that was in the first round.

    How anyone can watch basketball and say Kobe is better than Lebron is beyond me. Kobe on this Cavs team loses to the Pacers in first round.

    One of the most inefficient players of all time and got bailed out by Shaq and Gasol two of the most efficient players ever.
     
  16. hakeemthagreat

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    This is nonsense lol. Kobe played with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm & Brian Cook. That team just making the playoffs in THE WEST undermines any point you tried to make. We can't put Lebron in that scenario because he'd NEVER play on a roster like that, he'd of already switched teams by then. Lebron's a statchaser, Kobe's a winner. 2 different players
     
  17. MorningZippo

    MorningZippo Member

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    Lmfao, Kobe.

    Does he come with Shaq here? Clearly you can’t mean just Kobe by himself.
     
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  18. rm365

    rm365 Contributing Member

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    Kobe over lebron??
     
  19. rm365

    rm365 Contributing Member

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    You gotta be trolling.
    Hood didn't even play until game 3.
    Love was good. Korver sucked.

    How many allstars did gsw have?
     
  20. hakeemthagreat

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    The point is they're a SOLID team. They are NOT scrubs. Bottom line, they pushed GS to overtime and Lebron didn't score 1pt. Next game they were down 1pt in the 4th quarter & Lebron was passing up shots w/ Steph switched on him, while avoiding KD on defense. Whether GS is the better team is a not a question. The question is how can the so called GOAT be so passive & careless in crucial moments. After Lebron got his stats he stopped competing. That's not "King" like
     

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