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Is this step back a travel?

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by durvasa, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    Yeah, that's the video I saw yesterday. LeBron didn't take consecutive steps on the same foot.

    However, the video did have me wondering yesterday, but didn't want to derail the thread.

    It IS legal to take consecutive steps same foot if you dribble -- actually make the ball hit the floor -- in between EACH step, true ? @heypartner
     
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  2. Blurr#7

    Blurr#7 Contributing Member

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    My bad, watch the video I posted from a NBA TV segment. Personally I think this is turning into the NFL catch rule.
     
  3. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Not sure what the context of you posting that.

    That NBA TV segment is explaining one of the clauses in the definition of traveling. You cannot hop off of and land on the same foot. The rule is explicitly about hopping off a SINGLE leg. I'm away from puter, but can post the language later if you want.

    h. Upon ending his dribble or gaining control of the ball, a player may not touch the floor consecutively with the same foot (hop).
    That language isn't relevant to McCollum or Lebron's vids.

    fwiw: Not sure how long that has been in the rules. I'm quoting a 2014 rule book. [EDIT] It's also in the 2006 rule book.

    I'm also not sure how we got off on a discussion of jump step / jump stop. While legal, and quite complex to understand in the rules, neither McCollum nor the Lebron vid are examples of that.

    Btw: I can see why any ref would call both Lebron and Giannis for traveling in the posted vids, but in frame by frame review, both delay their gather with two hands until their right foot is established as pivot....thus legal 2 steps after.

    That said: I have to look at Lebron again to see if his hand got under the ball prior to gather, because that would constitute the end of dribble as well, per defined carrying rules
     
    #123 heypartner, Apr 1, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  4. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Yes, you can do anything with your feet while dribbling. You can even take 10 steps between dribbles. We see stuff like that fairly frequently, when a PG bringing the ball upcourt will do a huge dribble (like 8' high) and be walking under it wiping his hands or sumpin). Same with the circus slam where you do a big 15' bounce before the rim and run under it to jump and slam.
     
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  5. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    three sentences under my quote of you is a "lengthy reply"? :)

    I was kinda agreeing with you, telling durvasa your response is fair in the sense fans can disagree with the rules. It's ok to disagree with the rules, especially when HS has/had different rules .. and I think NCAA does/did at one point, too. fwiw: FIBA used to have different wording that they deemed confusing, so they have recently copied (verbatim) the NBA rules for traveling for clarity.

    anyhoot: I did get that you were saying you don't care how the league rules it, that you disagree nonetheless. cheers
     
  6. Blurr#7

    Blurr#7 Contributing Member

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    I think you got caught up with Houstunna and I’s discussion over Lebrons Crab dribble. Wich actually proves my point to him that they are two completely different moves.
     
  7. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    My point was LeBron didn't travel.
     
  8. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    I’m just giving you a hard time man. :p
     
  9. Blurr#7

    Blurr#7 Contributing Member

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    I know, but he did. By the rules and and an official confirmed it. Again what CJ did and Lebron did are two separate moves.
     
  10. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    You can clearly see the "#1" step in the video as being his "gather" step. He gets two more after that.

    Define power dribble
     
  11. Blurr#7

    Blurr#7 Contributing Member

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  12. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Got it. My bad.
     
  13. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    So, I tweeted the OP video to Ronnie Nunn to get his opinion, and ...

     
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  14. ParaSolid

    ParaSolid Member

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    I think that players and their skill coaches found a legal move that wasn't practiced and used before. It looks weird but I can appreciate the reasoning for its legality under league rules.
     
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  15. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    @durvasa -- thx for tweeting Nunn. I'd never be able to do that, thinking I'm bothering them. He's the king of describing the gather step, as you can see in the top tweet below where he describes "0" step. Seems like he's calling a hop step on left in your tweet, vs a gather issue. That's the way I've seen him tweet the consecutive foot hop rule. And what is a "wipe jumper", lulz.

    Here's Nunn on the Wesley Johnson ankle breaker




    And here he is on the whether the league is calling the move differently now


     
  16. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    More Nunn on gather step, and history




    When he uses the word "hop," he seems to reserve that use of the word for the rule in the rulebook that also uses the word "hop." here:

    h. Upon ending his dribble or gaining control of the ball, a player may not touch the floor consecutively with the same foot (hop).
    Here he describes a wickedly fast (yet hop) by Lebron on a fast break. The NBA TV vid on previous page explain this as well, developed by players trying to split double teams.


     
    #136 heypartner, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  17. tnopham

    tnopham Member

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    Didn't see this posted but here is Nunn explaining how Harden's stepback is NOT a travel.

     
  18. ParaSolid

    ParaSolid Member

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    Slightly related question given the discussion on hop steps above: are jump stops still legal?

    Back in high school, I used to do a move where you pound the ball into a gather, then "jump" from the gather and land on both feet. Is this still legal? I've heard / read that it is no longer a legal move.
     
  19. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Good thread.

    To me, OP is clearly NOT a travel. So an interesting line of this thread is Ronnie Nunn. He's apparently very inconsistent, lol. Understands the gather step and calls Harden's not travels. Thinks CJ's is nonetheless a travel. Yet the L2M report clearly says its not. On these nuggets, imo, Ronnie Nunn calls Harden's not a travel because Harden's (especially around the Wes Johnson move and Kerr comments) are highly publicized, whereas no one ever focused on the CJ move until @durvasa tweeted it to him. So he just responded what he thought on CJ's, not realizing it contradicts the L2M report (had he thought of looking that up, I suspect he responds differently). Regarding L2M reports in general ... I don't really find them all that great. There are plenty of examples you can find where even the L2M report is wrong. That said, I don't think they're wrong to favor superstars. When they're "wrong", I think they are so to favor the refs. That said, as @heypartner notes, there's plenty of step back's that can be ruled on by now, and they are NOT called travels... basically ever.

    Regarding the actual CJ move in the OP, by the "rulebook" or eye test, it seems 1,000% obvious to me that CJ definitely still has a live dribble until he "gathers" with two hands. Regardless of the rules after that point, I don't know how its arguable at that point he doesn't still have a live dribble?? He absolutely could keep dribbling.

    To me, it's because of that gather that the move is not a travel. And for comparison sake, you see multiple layup attempts like this every game. Not sure why it should be different for layups than step backs (but I'm not that familiar with the rule book).

    And bigger, bigger picture. Considering it isn't and hasn't been called a travel all year by refs, or in L2M reports, or even by guys like Nunn afterwards, I think this would be an example of the NBA meddling WAY too much if they "change the rule" in the offseason. I'm not in favor of changing rules for one or two players generally. But at least sometimes you can see it making sense. The 5 second backdown rule for example, which when combined with 3 seconds defense and that era just made for unwatchable basketball at times... ok, maybe look at the rules. Or the change on the offensive player swinging arms up... it makes sense how they changed it a bit so its still a foul, but NOT a shooting foul, even if the offensive player goes into a shot. I like that change. In this case, it's just a move. And a move that players have done before, and players will and have done again. The fact that there are very few Harden highlights in this thread points to that. Other and ANY player can do this move. and it leads to fun, highly watchable basketball - beyond being legal. In other words, the appropriate response from the NBA on this move in the offseason would be to clearly state, LEGAL MOVE, YOU WANT IT STOPPED, PLAY BETTER DEFENSE.... lol
     
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  20. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    just for clarification: The CJ shot is not in an L2M. That was beginning of the game. We were talking about the Giannis vid for an OT game winner.

    I find Nunn very consistent. Been following his definition of travel for years. He is the King of Gather Step explanation, and a big evangelist of helping others understand it. I'm still waiting on his clarification on the travel, since he used the word "hop" to describe it -- "hop to left". The word "hop" is actually in the rule book, so it is a technical terms for referees. If he is using the technical term "hop," then he is referencing a different rule...not the gather rule.

    But that probably confuses me even more, as CJ doesn't hop consecutively on same foot, unless one didn't see the slo-mo clearly. If he's calling travel for too many steps, since CJ's back is to us, and we never actually see the gather, I'd like Nunn to explain where he thinks the gather was.

    this

    Yeah, this is a key explanation for me, too. There is really no difference between a cross-over move by Harden and a gather for some of his step-backs, other than he stops the dribble with his second hand. Ball is live and looking the same in both...until the second hand stops the dribble

    That's what's so deadly about it....James' still got you worried about continuing his dribble.
     
    #140 heypartner, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018

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