Tmac and Yao = No playoff series victories Yao and Artest = 2nd round Harden and Howard = Western Conference Finals Maxwell and Yao, #11 (never worn again) Tmac , Scott Brooks #1 (Trevor Ariza)
The real question this thread should be asking: Ariza, DMo/Jones, Brewer or Wesley, Battier, Head? So sad that TMac & Yao's hopes were crushed by an unfortunate injury to JHoward + Donaghy in 05, injuries in 06, a horrid matchup vs Jazz in 07 with Luther Head as ur 6th man, and a crippled McGrady limping the Rockets along to 6 games vs Jazz in 08 with no help. Harden and Howard are great, but they've enjoyed coaching continuity, an excellent supporting cast, the best gm in the game constructing a roster around them for 3 years now, and no injuries to the baddest dude on the squad. When its all said and done, there's just too many IFS & BUTS that go with TMac & Yao to give it to them without discussion, but the discussion is definitely there to be had in spite of posters with straw man arguments trying to make this a lopsided H&H win. -V-
You know Tinman a lot of these guys weren't around to see Hakeem we cant really hold that against them. If there real rockets fans and they support the team today I applaud that. But I know you like I was there for the early mourning Galveston practices just to get a glimps of dream and the guys when practice ended. The excitement of driving around houston with clutch city banners on everyone's cars, and most importantly the parades in downtown that me and my whole family were at. Those were Exciting times and you and I both know Harden represents the opportunity to relive those great times. I love Yao and even didn't mind tmac while he was here but they never had that something about them that I knew they would get us to a ring like harden and this team have. It's hard to win a championship but we got James Harden an mvp performer multiple 1st team all NBA player and he's just getting started he's only 25. The future is bright Rockets fans.
You said his 2004-08 seasons were great im trying to tell you they were not as impressive as you might think. His biggest accomplishment in Houston was 22 game win streak. He played 15 playoff games in Orlando harden played 17 just this last year.
Shaquille O’Neal: NBA soft when I played, softer now http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....played-softer-now/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs
Tmac was an allstar before he came to the Rockets so he came with prepackaged fans. Harden was not, he had to build his case as an All star and win over the fans. Tmac came with expectations, they were definitely not met. His fans showered the BBS with excuses blaming the role players and yet lots of love for Jeff Van Gundy. Their brains could not understand that the defensive role players and all the ex-knicks and the slow offense was because of Jeff Van Gundy. Then when the Rockets got Ron Artest these people gave no credit to Rick Adelman. they didn't understand that Ron was a Rick the Ruler product from the Kings. His motion offense pissed Tmac off cause everyone got touches . Harden could adjust to any offense and not be pissed off at the organization or coach .
Those awards and achievements CERTAINLY have merit by themselves. You can say that they arent relevant to Rockets because it happened on other teams. Plenty fair But dont discredit the awards as being nothing but "fluff" - putting down the credibility of standard even being used where it makes it easier to dismiss the players Its like saying we got fat Britney Spears not young hot Britney, but that in actuality big boobs and toned body are "overstated" and overhyped anyway. Thats a totally subjective measure, of very commonly accepted standards. And it's its own separate thing apart from the discussion too
Here is how I look at this... Comparing healthy Yao+Tmac with Healthy howard and harden at same years of NBA experience. I picked Yao+Tmac over. When Yao and Howard were playing against each other, Yao consistently power over Howard offensively and equally on defensive end. Sure Howard may get little more rebound and blocks, but those were when Yao was sitting. 1 vs 1 Yao would destroy Howard as Howard has no offensive moves compare to Yao. Harden vs Tmac is rather tough as they never played at the same time in NBA. The closest clone of Tmac would be Durant. Now Do you think Durant is better than Harden? I think Durant is better then Tmac on defensive end, so as of now Tmac over Harden. Team - now thats clear win on Harden and Howard. If its wasnt due to the value of the support casts, there will be no way we beat Clippers.
Durant is a leader while tmac is not. The best comparison is that Durant is George Washington and tmac is Benedict Arnold. To be like Durant, tmac needed to be tje mvp and lead his team to the nba finals.
Anyone with half a brain and devoid of personal bias or agendas as well as blatant misinformation/ignorance from not having watched McGrady and Yao in their prime knows those two are better than Howard/Harden.
Are we talking 2v2 or 5v5? Anyway the answer is Harden/Yao, if we're looking at them while they were on the Rockets.
Anyone who watched yao and tmac together never saw them anywhere close to the western conference finals . Anyone who saw tmac play knows his pull up jumper game is nothing compared to Harden's.
T-Mac's playing has a Wow! factor that Harden's game usually lacks (unless we are talking about his step-back after utterly destroying the defender's rhythm) and that blinds a lot of people IMO. He had fancier moves and passing, but Harden is more efficient and stable IMO. He is more athletically gifted, but Harden is way smarter about how to use his own body. Both of them have silky shots, but Harden is far better at choosing what is the better shot than T-Mac, who easily falls in love with his inefficient, midrange jumper. Yao VS Howard is harder to decide. If going by 1v1, Yao obviously had Dwight's number. If it is by team fit for this team, assuming Dwight is willing to run the PnR, Dwight being the PnR, rebounding, defensive monster that he is is a much better fit next to Harden. For individual physical skill, Dwight is so much better than Yao ever was. I love Yao, but I will have to go with Dwight, mainly because we never got to see what Yao COULD HAVE been.
Ok ... Here's the list of DPOY winners: Player Lg Count DMutombo NBA 4 BWallace NBA 4 DHoward NBA 3 MEaton NBA 2 SMoncrief NBA 2 AMourning NBA 2 HOlajuwon NBA 2 DRodman NBA 2 MCamby NBA 1 TChandler NBA 1 MCooper NBA 1 KGarnett NBA 1 MGasol NBA 1 MJordan NBA 1 KLeonard NBA 1 JNoah NBA 1 GPayton NBA 1 ARobertson NBA 1 DRobinson NBA 1 MWPeace NBA 1 Just from this list, I don't see a single 'joke' among the 33 winners If Dwight manages to win even 1 more as a Rocket, he will then be tied with Deke and Ben as the only players in history to win 4 Dream is the only player in history to rank in all-time top 10 for both Blocks (#1) and Steals (#9) ... yet he only won twice Tim Duncan, the defensive backbone of the reigning NBA dynasty that has now won 5 rings and counting, and arguably the best PF to ever play in the NBA, never won DPOY DeAndre is now universally recognized as 'New Dwight' ... aka the best defensive big man in the NBA currently ... led league in Rebounds and Blocks last 2 seasons ... yet he is still looking for his first DPOY award too It seems to me this is an extremely difficult award to win, even for the all-time elite defenders in NBA history If awards aren't your flavor, how about some real stats ... Here's the list for NBA-leader in Def Win Shares by season: Season Lg Player DWS Tm 2014-15 NBA DJordan 5.39 LAC 2013-14 NBA JNoah 6.63 CHI 2012-13 NBA PGeorge 6.28 IND 2011-12 NBA JSmith 4.90 ATL 2010-11 NBA DHoward 7.68 ORL 2009-10 NBA DHoward 7.13 ORL 2008-09 NBA DHoward 7.56 ORL 2007-08 NBA DHoward 6.45 ORL 2006-07 NBA TDuncan 6.78 SAS 2005-06 NBA TDuncan 6.88 SAS 2004-05 NBA BWallace 6.72 DET 2003-04 NBA BWallace 9.08 DET 2002-03 NBA BWallace 7.85 DET 2001-02 NBA BWallace 7.24 DET 2000-01 NBA TDuncan 7.07 SAS 1999-00 NBA SO'Neal 6.99 LAL 1998-99 NBA TDuncan 4.68 SAS 1997-98 NBA TDuncan 7.17 SAS 1996-97 NBA PEwing* 6.87 NYK 1995-96 NBA DRobinson* 7.19 SAS 1994-95 NBA DRobinson* 6.74 SAS 1993-94 NBA PEwing* 7.98 NYK 1992-93 NBA PEwing* 8.05 NYK 1991-92 NBA DRodman* 7.00 DET 1990-91 NBA DRobinson* 7.64 SAS 1989-90 NBA HOlajuwon*8.74 HOU 1988-89 NBA HOlajuwon*7.81 HOU 1987-88 NBA HOlajuwon*6.32 HOU 1986-87 NBA HOlajuwon*6.02 HOU And here's the list for NBA-leader in Def Rating by season: Season Lg Player DRtg Tm 2014-15 NBA KLeonard 96.39 SAS 2013-14 NBA JNoah 95.82 CHI 2012-13 NBA TDuncan 94.97 SAS 2011-12 NBA KGarnett 94.21 BOS 2010-11 NBA DHoward 94.18 ORL 2009-10 NBA DHoward 95.44 ORL 2008-09 NBA DHoward 94.56 ORL 2007-08 NBA KGarnett 93.85 BOS 2006-07 NBA TDuncan 94.45 SAS 2005-06 NBA TDuncan 94.41 SAS 2004-05 NBA TDuncan 93.17 SAS 2003-04 NBA BWallace 87.48 DET 2002-03 NBA BWallace 89.99 DET 2001-02 NBA BWallace 92.89 DET 2000-01 NBA MCamby 90.56 NYK 1999-00 NBA DRobinson* 92.22 SAS 1998-99 NBA DRobinson* 87.94 SAS 1997-98 NBA DRobinson* 93.61 SAS 1996-97 NBA AMourning* 95.31 MIA 1995-96 NBA DRobinson* 96.45 SAS 1994-95 NBA SPippen* 98.25 CHI 1993-94 NBA PEwing* 92.88 NYK 1992-93 NBA PEwing* 94.34 NYK 1991-92 NBA DRobinson* 94.38 SAS 1990-91 NBA HOlajuwon*93.39 HOU 1989-90 NBA HOlajuwon*93.43 HOU 1988-89 NBA HOlajuwon*94.86 HOU 1987-88 NBA HOlajuwon*98.05 HOU 1986-87 NBA HOlajuwon*98.75 HOU To me, it looks like there is a very strong correlation between who the stats claim to be the league's best defender (by 2 different metrics) and who wins the DPOY award How can Dwight be considered anything other than an All-Time Great Def Big Man when the only players that compare to him in recent league history (by both awards and stats) are: TDuncan KG BWallace DRobinson AMourning PEwing DRodman Hakeem That's pretty much a Who's-Who list of the best post defenders to play in the league over the past 30 years
