Video Footage Shows Dallas Police Fatally Shooting Mentally Ill Man

Yeah, I'm usually pretty pro-cop on things like this, but it seems like 2 guys could have easily overpowered one guy with a dull screwdriver without having to shoot him 3 times.

Can a screwdriver even break the skin?

"You couldn't even break the skin with that thing."

Spoiler

 

Anas acuta, it's good to know that there's a trend towards dealing with mentally ill persons. While it can't always go perfectly according to training, I think these cops could have approached this situation with more discretion and caution instead of quickly escalating to firearms. And I hope more departments would take that approach as well.

I'm sure there are many daily instances of our police force doing exactly that, but those stories don't make the headlines and aren't magnified in the public light such as this. I think the public doesn't think or consider those good, unreported stories and unfairly bashes the police based on the sensationalized stories. That doesn't excuse this unfortunate event from being critically analyzed, though.

Anas acuta and The Law, I do appreciate both your insights on police matters, since you both come from law enforcement backgrounds. Don't get caught up in the bashing, but it'd also help for your credibility and discussion on these topics to not absolve other officers of all guilt or injustice. There are some critiques to be made, and differences to make optimal solutions, and admitting that would be good insight from law enforcement perspectives.

 

I don't think you can substantiate this number, the police are notorious for not keeping accurate records or reporting on police shootings...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...are-deaths-police-shootings-highest-20-years/

 

New research has came out since that article...


The researchers estimated more than 7,400 people were killed by police between 2003 to 2009 and 2011, or more than 900 deaths to law enforcement on average each year.
http://www.vox.com/2015/3/5/8156689/police-shooting-deaths

An average of 545 people killed by local and state law enforcement officers in the US went uncounted in the country’s most authoritative crime statistics every year for almost a decade
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/04/police-killed-people-fbi-data-justifiable-homicides

 

"Estimated" and "more than" sure seem like squishy numbers for someone who doubts the veracity of the SAMSHA dataset.

 

In the articles I posted on this topic the researchers have far more data to work with and even quotes from people who work in the field like the FBI director. Those surveys you posted in the other thread were more dependent on if a dope head is lying or not and I didn't see any quotes from any drug dealers saying they aren't making any money in that research either.

Was just adding fuel to your fire... You can bump the other thread and call me out there instead of getting this one off track considering they're unrelated topics.

 

Most Police dept don't keep an accounting of who they kill
or 'self report distorted numbers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ow-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/

Rocket River

 

I can understand the need to react to a man coming at you with a screwdriver. So many tough guys / hollywood brainwashed people thinking they would go all Steven Segal in those situations.

I just wonder why they didn't pull their tasers instead? Isn't that what they're for? Are they much slower to draw or something?

Seeing how quick they were to draw their guns was quite saddening. I doubt there are many developed countries around the world where cops would react like that to a man holding a screwdriver inside their own house.

 

Many developed countries like the UK do not have a large portion of their law enforcement carry firearms at all during patrol. Talk about true courage.

 

Courage when misapplied is stupidity. The US isn't the UK, we have a VERY different culture so the assumption that something would or should work here that works there is not a very good one.

 

I agree that there are many more guns here, so policing without one would have a lot of issues...and it's not going to happen anyways. A better point to that analogy though, is that perhaps UK cops would be better suited to handle a situation like mentally unstable screwdriver man than Dallas cops.

 

Probably, UK cops would have probably beat the hell out of the guy with their batons or used their taser on him and drug him away in cuffs. Honestly that's probably what should have happened here but it's important to note that in the UK there have been only 25 police officer fatalities in the last 15 years, there have been 29 police officer fatalities in 2015 alone in the US. It's just a completely different culture. Cops here are a lot more paranoid and they have pretty good reason.

 

Weapon in hand = rules of the game change

I can promise you, that I can come at you with a screw driver, while you're unarmed, and I will stab you with it.

So what you're saying is that the law needs to be re-written? Cops play by the same rules that apply to citizens. In Texas, that's Chaper 9 Penal Code.

Tasers are for unarmed, uncooperative people. Taser Inc. recommends what their device is used for and they aren't cops.

This is how every cop in America is trained;

Met with weapon = Meet with deadly force
Met with no weapons = Meet with intermediate weapons

Cops, as well as every citizen in this land, is allowed to OVERCOME to force being exerted upon them. By the use of force continuum in which police department's operate (which has held up to legal scrunity), it would be blatantly going against SOP to pull an intermediate weapon on someone who has a screw driver in their hand.

Yes this could have ended differently. But the cops didn't get to decide what the mentally disturbed man was going to be holding; All they were afforded the opportunity to do was react to his actions, in a very short amount of time.

 

Why even call the police in the first place?

They aren't going to diffuse that situation in a peaceful manner if there is any kind of drama.

 

I don't. The best emergency service I've ever had to deal with were Firefighters and EMTs. Police respond to calls like a teenage store clerk responds to a question on inventory. I may be because they are overworked but I doubt it. I honestly think good cops find a way out of the force and into better work. I hear it's like that from many good cops. They get tired of the idocy (fellow cops)they deal with very quickly.

 

Smaller departments (suburbs) with rigorous hiring practices are a lot different than what you're probably used to, which is big city cops.

 

I don't know why you keep repeating this because it's not true. If a friend and I showed up in the same scenario and one of us shot the guy dead for having a screwdriver we'd be charged with murder. You're claiming anything in anyone's hands is a weapon and therefore you're allowed to meet it with deadly force. That's just not true and obviously you're poorly trained if you think that's what the law entails.

(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force;

 

we never called the cops in my neighborhood. usually if the cops showed up it was more trouble than what we were dealing with. a lot of street justice and agreements were used.

to this day, even in my nice gated suburb community, i avoid calling the cops. it's always better when the community takes care of itself.

 

It's very true. When it comes time for court, what's going to be examined is what the person knew at the time the shots were fired. I don't know how else you're going to take it when someone is walking toward you with a screw driver in their hand. At the time the shots were fired, the officers believed that the unlawful use of deadly force was going to be used against them. They're uniformed officers, with their weapons drawn, and they're telling him to drop the screw driver. When he doesn't drop it, what in the hell else are they supposed to assume he's going to do with the screw driver. Maybe he doesn't even know he is holding anything. What matters when it comes time for court is what the person KNEW at the TIME deadly force was used. If someone comes at you with a weapon, you're justified in using deadly force, whether or not you're wearing a police uniform.


You can't go around using a deadly weapon against everyone holding a screw driver, but you've somehow misconstrued what I've said to mean just that...

 

I think that's how it should be, cops should be a last resort sort of situation. If you can handle the situation by yourself or with the aid of friends, family, and your community, you should. The only time I've called cops is when I had to make official reports for insurance purposes or whatever.