Agreed. The only case I could make against Piazza was that he was a horrid defensive catcher. I remember one of his games against the Astros. Every time an Astro got on first, they would steal. I think we had something like 8 or 9 on him in one game. But the dude could hit and is one of, if not the best hitting catcher of all time.
28 players have 3000 hits 26 players have hit 500 homers. 53 players have driven in 1500 runs. One is clearly not like the others. Not that triple-crown stats are good indicators of player effectiveness. But those are the criteria writers use.
So you're saying 1500 RBIs isn't a milestone? I could've sworn I've heard otherwise 100x already. Besides a couple of exceptions, PEDs is the only way 1500 doesn't make the HOF.
Baines isn't in; neither are McGriff, Kent and Delgado (who have all skated PED suspicions). I think it's a bit of a coattail milestone - great hitters who hit in the middle of the line-up tend to have a lot of RsBI. But I don't think it, by itself, is a guarantee of much. (Though it could also big chicken/egg - who knows?)
Bagwell makes 5 players out of 53.... over 90%. If that seems insignificant, we can agree to disagree. Good call on the 1500/1500... there's probably <20 players to achieve that combination.
My "objection" (if you can even call it that) is that I just don't think it carries the same universal appeal of 300, 3,000 or 500. 32, actually.
To these freakin' IDIOT writers who won't vote for Baggy, because they "think" he did steroids (despite NO evidence). If he did do roids don't you think he'd be hitting over 40 hrs consistently, and have at least one year where he hit over 50 hrs in a season? Especially during the Enron/Minute Maid yrs? FYI...he NEVER hit over 50 hrs in a season DESPITE playing five seasons at Enron/Minute Maid with that short fence in left. In fact he only hit over 40 hrs ONE time at Minute Maid (47 in '00). The other 4 seasons he hit: '01 39 (played in 161 gms) '02 31 (158) '03 39 (160) '04 27 (156) A guy like Gonzo hit 57 hrs in a season, A Soriano hit 46, Brady Anderson hit 50, and there are countless others who jacked over 40 hrs that weren't big time hr hitters. Just something to think about.
Manfred comes out to HoF voters and says don't surmise PED usage unless you have solid proof. It will probably fall on deaf ears, but who knows. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/1...manfred-says-hall-fame-voters-surmise-ped-use
Luis Gonzales, Steve Finley, Ken Caminiti, Jeff Bagwell, (personally, I'd include Craig Biggio too). See a connection? I loved those Astros teams and everyone of those players. This group was very close. Especially with Cami. No I don't have a smoking gun, but I've got enough smoke to keep cheech and chong happy for life.
that's actually the best counter possible to the argument. They all hit their steroid peaks after the Astros. But the modifications from who bagwell was supposed to be when we traded Larry Anderson for him, to what he became was significant. The deterioration in his shoulder was consistent with the decline from steroid use (and a pre-existing condition). I whole heartedly agree that unless they were caught, you have to consider them innocent. But as a diehard Astros fan- I still have a hard time believing the hometown guys were as pure and clean as they were made out to be.
Tony Gwynn was teammates with Finley and Caminiti. Jeter was teammates with A-Rod, Clemens, and Pettite. All these sort of guilt-by-association arguments are exactly what Manfred is speaking against. Age and injury related decline happens to players naturally all the time, without any PEDs being involved.
Well by these standards I'm screwed. I was friends with a guy in High School that killed 2 people with an axe. I own an axe too, so I need to be locked up because surely I killed people with an axe. My guess is Jeff Bagwell is not the only player in history to turn out different than his projections. You are exactly who Manfred is talking about, you don't have any proof other than conjecture but you want to convict him because he was friends with people.
I'm calling the cops on you castor, better hide your axes. You're right though, it's full conjecture. Yet with as dirty as the game was for so long, I have a very hard time believing many of the players in the steroid era were clean. I don't reserve my blind conjecture just for the stros. I also wouldn't withhold any of the players from the hall including Bonds and Clemens. They were great with or without.
Both of those last 2 were named in the Mitchell report which in and of itself is pretty damning. Enough so that Manfred in the link I posted, said he would not withhold judgement on guys in that report. Guys like Bagwell and Piazza and to a much lesser extent Biggio get the "well they played with people that did steroids, so they must have done them", while a guy like Frank Thomas who played during the same time, with a lot of the same people gets a complete pass. What makes Thomas different from Piazza and Bagwell? The fact that he came out and said he didn't use steroids? Didn't Palmeiro say the same thing right before failing a test. I'm not saying Thomas used, but there is about as much evidence that he used as the other 2. You have every right to your opinion, I just disagree that they should be punished on the guilt by association, everyone in the era was doing it evidence.
Thomas in on "first ballot" and Bagwell under 70% after four ballots tells us all we need to know about the baseball acumen of the Hall of Fame voters.
