Bill Maher and Sam Harris arguing with Ben Affleck about Islam

well it appears that some of you clearly can't understand the difference between attacking a religion - the ideas and attacking a group of people for their beliefs. You may think they are the same, but they are not. ATW's explanation in post 281 clearly showed you how the poll results that seemed contradictory, were in fact aligned with each other, yet you probably ignored the substance of his argument and went on to try to bait him into responding to your questions so you could attack him. Also that video/CNN summary you post shows absolutely nothing to argue the core/main point of what Maher's argument was, in fact it largely ignored his argument completely...

Also, to say that we should not talk about extreme Islam because only a minority believe in extremism is absurd. As shown in the pew polls, although many Muslims (specifically those living abroad) may not want to act violently themselves, they still support violent actions against others along with sharia law being imposed on nonbelievers. The fact that many of their core beliefs are aligned with those which we would call extremists should not only be alarming, but should be openly discussed within both the general public and the entire Islamic community. Widespread beliefs such as the killing of apostates, jizya taxes on nonbelievers, killing of adulterers/homosexuals, etc must be removed from the Islamic before the (very valid) criticisms of the religion - not it's people, will stop.

 

fixed

 

could you expand on this one, please?

So, if someone criticizes Israeli political policy, or aspects of the Jewish religion ... he is not an antisemitic Jew hater?

These were wasted arguments, because:
- Using two prejudiced stereotypes isn't how you start a rational defense
- Whether Islamophobia is the same as antisemitism or not doesn't really speak to the graphic you posted.

The graphic has a picture of the Star and Crescent, then condones Islamophobia, which is a term for prejudice against, hatred towards, or fear of Islamic doctrine, Muslims, or of ethnic groups perceived to be Muslim.

Logically, since it has a picture of the Christian Cross, Star of David, Republican elephant and Democratic donkey, it should also condone prejudice against, hatred towards, or fear of Christian/Jewish/Political doctrine, Christians, Jews, Republicans and Democrats, or of ethnic groups perceived to be Christians, Jews, Republicans and Democrats. In the case of Judaism and Jews, that irrational hatred is called "antisemitism."

What it did get right, however, is that Islamophobia isn't racism. It's ethnic, religious, and racial prejudice.

Do you stand behind this graphic?

-----

What you've quoted here (link) is an op-ed. The author is writing his opinion on an event organized by The Center for Research on Antisemitism, which he hasn't attended. Although the guy's a PhD, this doesn't seem like a very smart, fact-based move.

Again, showing that antisemitism and Islamophobia are different doesn't really help your argument. They have their differences, but they are both types of prejudice that are unacceptable in the civilized world.

At any rate, I've pointed out why for you below - in easy to understand snippets.

He's projecting here and setting up a strawman. There's no way he knows what the organizers feel without actually going to the conference, or interviewing the organizers personally. He also doesn't know what information will be presented, so he can't speak to it's factual accuracy or strength of argument. This is why smart critiques are given after an event.

He says "Judaism embraces both a race and a religion." This statement falls within a gray area because while being "jewish" is also considered a racial identity, Judaism also embraces Africans, Middle-easterns - including arabs and persians, South Asians, East Asians, Europeans, and Americans. While these people may be of the same faith, they are not of the same race. There are also people of the Jewish "race" which converted away, or don't practice the religion of Judaism. So while Islam is strictly a religion, the religion portion of Judaism can be separated from the racial portion of Judaism as well.

The rest of his paragraph delineates between types of prejudice. He's not trying to justify Islamophobia, or anti-african racism. He's pointing out how he thinks antisemitism is different without making a moral judgement on "right" or "wrong." This argument may or may not be applicable to the conference he's writing about, but we don't know because the conference is in the future.

Either way, his argument doesn't help your argument, because you are trying to make a moral judgement - both in text and through your graphic.

For the record, I think (and can probably show) that Islamophobes also think that the muslims are trying to take over the world, contrary to this guy's opinion. So he may have missed the mark on that one.

Again, he says that antisemitism is different than Islamophobia, without making a moral judgement on whether one of them is "right" and the other is "wrong." Again, it may or may not be applicable to the conference that he hasn't attended. And again, it doesn't help your case that islamophobia is an acceptable form of criticism.

I'd like to point out that he has the wherewithal to differentiate between Muslims, Islam, and Islamic Terrorists. Take notes.

The rational / irrational argument is a little strange. All race based hatred is pretty much irrational. Jews have been used as slaves in the past just as any other race through history.

He also alludes to Islamists that want to take over the world, which is a similar to a sentiment in antisemitism.

You should fact check the bolded part, because I bet this guy didn't.

His conclusion doesn't really follow the arguments he made previously. He's shown why racism, Islamophobia and antisemitism are different, but he hasn't shown why comparing the three is dangerous (and in what context). Again, this may or may not be applicable to the conference that he hasn't attended yet.

And still, he doesn't justify Islamophobia - which again, doesn't help your case.

He finally slays the strawman here and is victorious. Also, he never showed that Islamophobia is the same as "criticism of Islamic Jihad," or that The Center for Research on Antisemitism holds that view.

All in all, nothing Clemens Heni said here supports your prejudice-condoning graphic, or your attempts to legitimize Islamophobia.

 

It is different questions in the exact same poll.

 

News flash: I did

Yes, you made **** up and then spouted off as if it accurately reflected reality.

News flash 2: You should read this to yourself as this is exactly what you did by making **** up then spouting off as if it accurately reflected reality.

 

The only one being embarrassed here right now is you ATW. Many people here have deconstructed your arguments and shown the massive fallacies. You respond with personal attacks.

It doesn't make them look bad, it makes you look bad. It makes you look like a sore loser in fact who can't take being wrong like a man so you have to act like a child. A sir jackie child!

 

While I don't disagree with the quoted analysis in that link (the link says people are misusing the term "islamophobe" to combat any criticism of Islam related events, the same way "antisemite" is misused to combat any criticism of Israel or Judaism), I don't think it's a sufficient enough reason to subvert the actual meaning of either word and blankly call it a "misnomer" or a "propaganda" word.

At any rate, there's a myriad of replies in that thread that cover it.

 

The argument here isn't about Islamic Extremism. That's the whole point. ATW has been making the case that Islam is inherently violent and he is indeed attacking the religion - not the people. You have to go back and read the thread in its entirety.

His post isn't deserving of a response because he uses personal attacks and strawman to debate here. He's not talking about fringe elements, he's talking about all of Islam.

He is clearly trying to say that Islam is intolerant to other religions and that the implication will be they will wipe us all out if we don't convert. That simply isn't true.

No one is debating the need for reform in those countries. Just like Christianity went through reform. But this man is not advocating reform, he is advocating demonization of Islam which is the same thing as anti-Semitism. The proof is that he offers no solutions. He simply highlights all that is bad with Islam and even will cherry pick and spin information (like the mosque map) to paint Islam in a negative light.

This isn't a debate about Islam or the need for reform, or about Islamic extremism. This is a debate about hate.

 

Uhh, the guy you are quoting is the king of this.

 

From what I have observed in his posts, his point is that "extremism" is not as small of a group in Islam as many believe it to be. The numbers in the pew polls show that many extremist ideas/goals are held by the majority of Muslim people in some of the countries polled. This is why he is saying that it is not only an extremist problem, but an Islamic one.

I also personally believe there are parts of Islam that inherently support violence, just as there are in the Old Testament. The difference is that Christianity for the most part ignores the Old Testament and Islam/a large number of Muslims support many extreme practices that the vast majority of educated people would consider unacceptable.

When Islam is used as a method of governance, this is where it fails. If it is however used as a method of personal reflection/spiritual growth, there is no issue, but when it is used to oppress people who don't follow the religion or incite violent acts against those who have committed minor offenses, criticism of the religion itself must happen in order for these reforms I mentioned earlier (from within the Islamic community itself) to occur.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/22/us/colorado-teens-syria-odyssey/index.html

Stories like this is why I believe in what ATW is trying to do. Something is seriously wrong...

 

there are needles in haystack

and no one know why

 

ROFL, you've got that bass ackwards, but then again, that is par for the course for you.

Please, point out so much as a single example of where I was "embarrassed" by bigpuffery.