Former Muslim says that ISIS represents true Islam

A) This has never in history stopped teenagers from having sex.

B) God didn't command Muhammad's every move. Muhammad is/was human, and he made human mistakes, and those decisions fall within the context of the time. Muslims will avoid saying it for as long as possible, but Muhammad the person was not infallible and even by the Quran's standards his infallibility is strictly limited to the receipt and delivering of certain ideas communicated to him privately - this infallibility does NOT extend to his daily life and every decision he made and every sentence he uttered. It's terrible to think about it, but marrying a girl who just passed puberty was incredibly common in his town, his region and in fact the world at that time. Muslims will not say to you that this is a mistake, but from your perspective this was not a divine man so why is it so outrageous to you that he married her and not outraged that the whole world was engaging in this action? Is it more relevant to you than, for example, George Washington owning male and female slaves to rape and abuse as he wished? It is what it is, and really the only people who still think it's ok incidentally are the people the whole world independent of religion last week agreed we need to get rid of.

C) Much of today's Islamic jurisprudence did not exist when Muhammad was alive because more than half of it was written decades after he passed away. Over half of Islamic law today did not exist when Muhammad was alive. You will find that a large amount of those laws reversed the trend of increased rights for females, minorities, orphans and slaves.

 

You are literally the first Muslim ever in my entire life that I have witnessed saying that Muhammad was not the perfect man morally.

Why am I outraged? You honestly couldn't use any semblense of inductive reasoning to figure this one out? Its simple. Muslims find his morality infallible and objective since it comes from the one true objective source for morality, God. Thus a good portion of Muslims are stuck following the moral code of 700AD Middle East. You don't see this as a problem?

 

Wow, I don't even know where to begin.

First, I'd like to congratulate you for abandoning the Taliban practice of demonizing a pursuit of knowledge. This is a big step for you and I am genuinely happy to witness your growth and development.

Second, you may be rushing into your new-found googling skills too early. This is an advanced skill, which you may not be ready for:

As a first step, I suggest practicing reading the full article before you post it. This way you won't get caught with your pants down.

For instance, here are some of the links you posted, with excerpts from the body of the article:

The Economist: http://www.economist.com/node/11745570

The article doesn't support the theory that Erdogan wants Sharia Law, it does the opposite. I encourage everybody to read the full article to get a rounded view of Turkey.

The Australian: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...545827254?nk=f62f02a38ba89428489f52339ca2f922

The argument is "Erdogan wants Sharia Law because Turkish Airlines won't serve alcohol. Either that, or you didn't click on the link, because the remainder of the article is behind a pay-wall .

Also, once your skill advanced to "check your random page against the other sources," you'll see that Turkish Airlines does in fact serve alcoholic drinks.

Your linked video - which I assume you watched, incorrectly translated the speech in order to advance it's own agenda, and you fell for it. When properly translated, Erdogan says that democracy is a tool to give people what they want - which has some truth to it. Also, he's also a politician speaking to the Muslim Arab Youth Association Conference in Ohio, so it's easy to see how he panders to the crowd.

Advanced skill: Context is important!

Please continue to practice the google, you're on the right track =).

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Separate from that, making generalized comments about a large group of individuals due to the actions or claims of a few is called "stereotyping." This practice generally leads to incorrect conclusions:

No matter how often the Westboro Baptist Church refers to themselves as Baptists, their practices do not reflect the general Baptist population and they are not the same as the general Baptist population.

Similarly, multiple Sunni and Salafi nations have united against IS, so it turns out that they are neither accepted by the Sunnis or the Salafis.

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And finally, here's a slideshow of politicians with ties to dictators or other generally undesirable men:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Advanced skill: Accusations are not the same as a "guilty" verdict!

Please do continue to practice the google, and separate good information from bad. I know it'll be hard, but I believe that you can do it!

 

So you speak Turkish? Explain yourself.

Answer this question: Has Erdogan imprisoned many journalists, yes or no?
Bonus question: Do you think he has done that because he believes in freedom of speech, yes or no?
Bonus question no. 2: Why do you think he is trying to suppress freedom of speech, and freedom of the press?
Bonus question no. 3: Is it because he does NOT have an agenda?

 

None of the answers to those questions point to his alleged desire for sharia law, or to anything Muslim related - which is the conclusion you draw in every one of your posts.

He has a desire to retain power.

 

So you don't speak Turkish?

 

Circle back ATW, whether I speak Turkish or not doesn't change Erdogan's actions.

Think man, think.

 

It's ridiculous that you are trying to say his agenda is not Sharia.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Glob...ime-minister-signals-deepening-strategic-ties

Saudi award to Turkish prime minister signals deepening strategic ties

A Saudi award to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan for his 'service to Islam' underscores Saudi backing for Turkey's bid to take a more activist role as a Middle East power broker.

But of course, religion has nothing to do with any of this, just like in this case:

Erdogan ‘glad’ to return US Jewish group award

ISTANBUL: Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan would be glad to return an award given to him by a Jewish-American association a decade ago, a letter released by his office showed on Tuesday, and it called on the US group to condemn the Israeli government’s policies.
The New York-based American Jewish Congress said in a letter to Erdogan last week that he had become the world’s “most virulent anti-Israeli leader” and it demanded that he return an award it had given him partly for his efforts to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians.
“Prime Minister Erdogan will be glad to return the award given back in 2004,” Turkey’s ambassador to Washington Serdar Kilic said in the letter addressed to American Jewish Congress President Jack Rosen.

http://www.arabnews.com/news/609356

 

There is no objective morality that is immediately apparent to a human being. We can only use reasoning, logic, and a society's moral compass to create laws. That is our subjective 'morality'.

Also, God can be the most vile, evil, and hypocritical entity who's unaffected by your disbelief. Yet, this spaghetti monster can punish you eternally if you rightly reject its existence. There's nothing stopping it. Yes, it's very vain, but what are you as a human going to do about it? Although I don't think the entity is this way, it's very possible that is. Either way, we know so very little and we live for such a small amount of time that it's arrogant to think our beliefs have any impact or justness. Live and let live, I say. I respect your decision to become an atheist, and I don't pity you having or lacking something I (supposedly) have.

You need to meet more Muslims. I understand you're from a Bengali background. I understand you may have may have met many Muslims during your tours and while watching the news. There is diversity in Islam, and we don't all think alike. Extremist Islam and literalists have been hijacked the brand of Islam. Their version has successfully become the Islam most westerners and ex-Muslims such as yourself conjure up when hearing the word. This because of the conditions on the ground are ripe for it and they have a lot of petrodollars funding their world-view.

In fact on fallibility, I mentioned it in my reply last year [on Muhammad marrying a child] "however, it's entirely possible what most mainstream Islam critics suggest. In that case, I find it very troubling, but not faith-shattering. Muhammad is NOT infallible or perfect. He is NOT to be emulated literally, but in principle. However, like most things in life, people disagree on it. Seems you two were taught he was; I was told the opposite, and my research backs my hunch."

 

dmc89, are you a Sunni Muslim?

 

Again, using your sources (you really should start reading these) -


Erdogan ‘glad’ to return US Jewish group award
http://www.arabnews.com/news/609356

Quest for power, not Sharia. Also looks like a pissing match that happens between pro-palestinians and pro-israelis that happens in the US as well.


Saudi award to Turkish prime minister signals deepening strategic ties
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/03/10/102644.html

Nothing sinister here, unless ... do you hate rapport between civilizations and constructive dialogue, ATW?


"The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2270642.stm

Looks like they're not even his words, but lines from a poem. Also looks like he was jailed by a "secular" government for exercising "free" speech.

In fact, it looks like Turkey has a long history of political jailing, coups and violence, regardless of race, creed, religion, or ethnicity of those in power:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17994865

 

g1184, why are you so hell-bent on pretending that Erdogan is not motivated by his religious beliefs? What's in it for you?

 

I'm not aligned with any of the traditional jurisprudence schools (I reject their authority to be a middleman for me in interpreting and practicing my faith). I would most closely be identified with Quranism and Sufism. Quranism describes most of my family and friends as well.

 

Thank you.

I just read this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches

My head is spinning.

But it sounds like most extremists are either Sunnis or Shiites, and followers of Sufism and Quranism are more liberal/moderate than most Sunnis/Shiites?

Or is this an unfair generalization?

For context, it would be interesting to understand what sect the posters here belong to.

Seems to me that adeelsiddiqui, Hydhypedplaya and trustme, all of whom I consider the most extreme Islamist posters on here (other than Exiled, who simply doesn't seem to be all there mentally), are all Sunnis or Salafis/Wahhabis. trustme lived in Saudi Arabia for many years and clearly, the other two and trustme know each other and they are possibly all related.

Mathloom - I dunno.

But I remember having seen some rather heated debates among Muslims (with each other) here about "right" or wrong interpretation of the faith.

Kind of interesting.

P.S.: Also, is there a page with information about how many followers the different sects have, and where? I couldn't find anything, other than the statement that Sunnis make up the largest group.

 

That's tricky. In my experience, most of the Sunnis and Shias that I know are not extremist. However, extremists usually belong to these two. Even among non-extremists, they might say something like Muhammad was perfect and anything regarding him must not be questioned. Anyone who does is a pariah, and they must be ignored (note: not killed or hurt). On the other hand, I don't know any extremists from the smaller sects like (strictly) Sufism or Quranism.

It's a shame that data here is lacking. This is the best I found by Pew.

 

Is this image accurate?



It basically seems to say everyone is Sunni or Shia, though...

 

Yeah, I'd disagree with that part although the rest of is a solid overview and ballpark numbers. There is Sunni, Shia, or "Other". Almost all Sunnis or Shias say there are two texts, the Quran and the Hadith. If you reject the Hadiths, which were written long after Muhammad died but are allegedly things he said (they're very inconsistent), then you're not Sunni or Shia as most would understand the term.

More and more Muslims that I meet are rejecting the Hadiths which are the source of the stuff like 72 virgins. They wouldn't be represented in this image.

 

“Do you know what we call opinion in the absence of evidence? We call it prejudice.”
― Michael Crichton, State of Fear

There is no evidence that Erdogan is a red-eyed sunni devil monster hell-bent on delivering sharia law on the heads of all Turks. None.

Right-of-center Muslim pragmatist, who seems to be a jerk with a growing power-lust ... there's a case to be made for that, based on evidence you've provided on your own.

But your main motivation (Islam) blinds you to the fact that his main motivation is not Islam.

 

That's your (wrong) opinion. There is plenty of evidence.

Again, let us know what your motivation is. You are obviously not Turkish, as you have already displayed your lack of knowledge on Turkey plenty of times.

Is it the fact that you share the same ideology as Erdogan that makes you try and pull wool over everyone's eyes? Taqiya?

What is your motivation?

 

Then show me some. Show me objective proof that Erdogan is an ISIS loving, religion driven, sharia law crazed despot.

What you have so far is speculation and chain email headlines.

Truth and objectivity.

I'm getting the feeling you don't know what a "fact" is. I challenge you to back up your above claim.

Also, "everybody" has access to the same information I do (because I linked all my sources, and some of yours too), and can make up their own minds. No wool here.