I already posted this rant on Facebook today but I think it is very important so I will repeat it here on Clutchfans. I also thought about posting it in the Robin Williams thread but I think it's important enough to deserve its own thread/discussion. Mods, feel free to merge with the Robin Williams thread if you disagree or even move to the D&D if necessary. This was spurred by Matt Walsh's very misguided blog post that I won't perpetuate by linking it here but it basically calls Robin Williams' suicide selfish because depression is "spiritual". Shep Smith on Fox News also went on a similar rant to Matt Walsh. Matt Walsh/Shep Smith's general attitude towards depression is very misguided and destructive. Not all suicides are done by depressed people and not all depressed people want to kill themselves. Depression is very much a real disease and it in fact, is due to a chemical imbalance in the brain, no matter how much some people want to marginalize that. It's easy to say "suicide is selfish" or "you're only hurting people you leave behind" but at least in the context of Robin Williams, it was very much driven by REAL depression coupled with his bipolarity. Real clinical depression. I myself do not suffer from depression but some people very close to me do. It is a constant struggle and it took me a while to get over the feeling of "why are they so sad? Why is my love not enough for them? How can they be so selfish?" It is very difficult and I still struggle with it but after researching and empirically understanding that depression is in fact a real disease and is treatable by real medication, things are better. Sadness is not depression. I cringe when people say "I'm so sad this bad thing happened to me. I'm depressed." For those of us fortunate enough to be not afflicted with this disease, it is a blurry line because visibly, people suffering from depression do look "sad". Matt Walsh's attitude of "it's not just medical, it's spiritual" is very destructive and further blurs that very important line. This is of course not to say, "oh let all the depressed people kill themselves. They'll finally find relief". That is just silly. Depression, for the most part excluding very extreme cases, is treatable by medicine and there are more depressed people that do not take their own lives everyday and is treated than there are ones that resort to suicide. I believe we as a society has come a long way in understanding this terrible affliction but very misguided and foolish people like Matt Walsh and Shep Smith perpetuating their aforementioned destructive rhetoric through a very high profile suicide is very very dangerous and must be stopped. Sorry for the long rant but I hope this opens some people's eyes.
I agree with the spirit of your post but by far Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is more effective in treating depression than medication. I don't take these Fox News anchors very seriously--their job is to spew hatred at the supposed liberal establishment of celebrities that is ruining traditional America. It is true that suicide is destructive to those who experience it through loved ones. There is always guilt when someone dies. That doesn't mean it is productive to be mad at someone who is dead. Don't think Fox News has much influence on how people actually think or feel--it's not a critical news source.
You're seriously underestimating the power of dumb people following Fox News. I don't know much about Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, I just speak from personal accounts of people who were depressed getting help in forms of medication and getting better. The point is that it is a real medical condition that can be treated. Not many likes or shares. I just posted it and I'm not that popular .
Medication v. CBT is a controversial issue in psychology. CBT is a therapy that focuses on teaching people to recognize that their illogical thinking is behind their negative feelings. It is not pushy or judgment, it's simply about teaching people to change their thoughts. My claim, which is supported by some evidence but obviously not conclusive, is that CBT is just as effective as medication for depression/anxiety/etc. but lasts longer. This is probably more of a D&D topic.
As someone who's dealt with (and been institutionalized for) severe depression/suicidality, I generally agree with what you've written, but I DO believe that suicide is inherently selfish. Now I use the word 'selfish' as simply a description -- NOT a judgement -- and let me emphasize that I don't consider selfishness to be an evil or immoral trait (it's frankly essential to survival). But any altruistic motivations for suicide seem to just be rationalizations born out of guilt/desperation. I mean, don't depressed individuals generally commit suicide because they've been driven to the point that they don't feel like they can handle being (or don't want to be) alive any longer? How is that anything but selfish? Just because a person is not of sound mind due to illness/drugs/whatever, that doesn't mean they're incapable of acting selfishly. Quite the contrary, in my opinion. What it DOES mean is that we should approach them and their decisions with empathy and understanding, rather than judgement.
That's a great point. However, not everyone sees the word "selfish" with the caveat you laid out on the first bolded part. Used in some way, like the way Shep Smith is, does carry a connotation of immorality. The second bolded part I cannot agree with more.
All good stuff here. You guys are putting into words my own thoughts on the subject- something I've struggled to do.
I disagree. There are certainly situations one could come up with where suicide would be a selfless choice. The monk who self-immolated in protest of the mistreatment of Buddhists in South Vietnam was not being selfish, he sacrificed his life to bring attention to the suffering of others. Suicide is often a selfish act, but selfishness is not inherent to the act.
I believe many feel they are dragging down those around them. They feel it is selfish for them to be depressed , rather than just free the others. Flawed thought process, but depression changes the mind
I think what you're categorizing is actually "clinical depression", and not depression in general... Not all depression is due to a mere chemical imbalance remedied by medicine... this is false... and such the narrow attitude behind many misdiagnoses and misapplied treatment... towards a symptom as variedly rooted as an individual's emotions... Things like severe emotional/psychological trauma can cause depression... Things that may've happened to a person when they were children and were hastily suppressed rather than properly addressed... Even smaller things that may've had a great impact on an individual... Any deep wounds really that are masked, hidden, concealed but never treated - like any deep physical wounds can only become infected and fester... The difference being, that with emotional/psychological wounds, even small ones can grow deeper the longer they're neglected...
Depression has nothing to do with spirituality. To hear someone suggest that greatly infuriates me. However I do accept that some people use it as a coping mechanism. For those debating cognitive behavioral therapy vs medication, it is important to remember that treating a mental illness is not as straight forward as giving someone an antibiotic for an infection. Medication will not be as equally effective on everyone and the same for therapy. Finding the right balance for your patient is all part of the treatment process. A lot of a psychologist/psychiaytist's job is trial and error. I know in my case I had depression for a long time. Starting in middle school all through college until I decided to see a psychiatrist about it. I never went through therapy, but I did go on antidepressants for a while. For me I feel like my brain just forgot how to be happy or what it felt like. Once I went on th ose meds it was like an epiphany. I felt like a child feeling happiness for the first time. Ever since then I've been able to manage my depression and not allow it to reach a point of despair. Depression can creep up on you until it reaches a point where you lose control if it and you spiral into hopelessness. Cognitive behavioral therapy would be helpful to those who struggle to manage their depression. Fortunately for me I ended up getting a psychology degree allowing me to have a deeper understanding of my depression than most sufferers would have. Suicide and suicidal tendencies are a symptom of depression. They are driven out of their mind by their depression to a point where death seems to be the only relief. I struggle to consider that selfish. When depression gets to the point where one starts to think about suicide, sometimes one would never allow themselves to do that because of the thought of what it would do to their loved ones. Unfortunately other's depression is more severe and that wouldn't stop them. It is the illness causing them to do this. The person they were is lost to the depression.
Not a content-rich post, I'd say, but let's take that for a second. I think depression is actually world-wide as a problem, but it doesn't receive attention in areas where people don't have enough clean water to drink, for instance. For another, let's say for a moment (hypothetically) that depression is more common in the so-called developed world. That might be completely explainable. Humans evolved to fight and kick their way toward barely surviving by chewing beetles and evading near-death scenarios. It is quite unnatural to sit, say, in a cubical or office all day doing things that don't really make sense to the wild world of our relevant genetic ancestors. I've always thought our comfort would naturally lead to chemical setting issues; it seems like putting unleaded gasoline in a diesel engine. Overall, nice thread, folks! Great posts, and I hope we keep it out of the D&D.
I wouldn't say depression is "more common" in the developed world. It's a matter of it being more noticeable and diagnosed. When you wake up each morning wondering where your next meal or drink of water will come from, or having to hide so someone won't cut off your head, you don't tend to have the time or resources to diagnose and treat mental illness. It's a simple reflection of the hierarchy of needs. Starving to death or getting murdered is a more pressing concern than your mind slowly unraveling to the point of self annihilation. Link dump incoming about depression & suicide: Why Funny People Kill Themselves There's Nothing Selfish About Suicide 21 Things No One Tells You About Being Depressed
Depression isn't selfish... taking the easy way out with suicide is the selfish act. Sure, you're brave, but... why is it that you couldn't care less about the people left alive and for them to deal with your self-inflicted death? It's just avoiding dealing with all your "problems." Get HELP and LISTEN to the advice. Now, medication... don't get me started on that... I second this.
