Rumor: Cleveland has deal in place for Love (Wiggins potentially involved)

There's a good argument that if they did not trade Harden they definitely would have beaten San Antonio this past year (and would have ran straight through Miami) and probably would have gotten to the Finals the year before.

OKC might have 1, maybe 2, championships in them but I think we all can agree that keeping Harden would have gotten them at least 1 by now.

 

Love to Lebron outlet passes will be so fun and crisp that they should get Cris Collinsworth to commentate on them. Browns might get Love to be their QB.

 

I'm not sure about that. OKC has a critically boring iso offense. Adding Harden to that team is theoretically huge in a motion-based offense of some sort. But with the iso crap they do, instead of giving the ball to Westbrook or Durant and having everyone else stand around, you're just doing the same with Harden. In that setup, WB/Durant have to take more shots without Harden there, but I'm not sure it really makes them that much better. And defensively, who knows how SA can exploit a guy who doesn't pay attention on defense.

Of course, there's also the bobrek rule in play here - you can't predict how anything else would have played out. Maybe Westbrook doesn't get injured and they are a juggernaut 2 years ago. Or maybe Harden and Durant collide and knock each other out for the season. You can't ever predict with certainty that some combo of players would have won a championship.

Carmelo and Detroit is a good example of this on the reverse side. It's easy to say Darko was a mistake, but if they pick Carmelo instead, maybe he takes too many shots or they spend time trying to integrate him. As a result, maybe they never win a championship despite making the smarter move.

 

I understand what you're saying but we DO have evidence of Harden playing alongside Durant/WB/Ibaka and evidence of him playing well against San Antonio with Durant/WB/Ibaka. Lest we forget, it was Harden that ripped the Spurs a new one the year OKC went to the Finals. So it's not like we're forecasting something that's unknown (Carmelo on Detroit's team). Harden's game was evolving and I'm quite positive that while he wouldn't have had the opportunity to score like he has in Houston Harden would still have easily dropped in 20 ppg being the third guy in OKC.

And what if they had kept Harden? Houston definitely wouldn't have made the playoffs, Westbrook probably wouldn't have gotten hurt, and Patrick Beverley would still probably be stranded somewhere overseas playing basketball.

It's not an open-and-shut case that OKC would have won the past 2 championships but there's a very good chance they would have came out with at least 2 Finals trips and maybe even one championship. As for their future? With Miami's Big 3 long gone? You have to think that Harden/Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka could get a couple more. At least I believe (and probably most other out there would too) a 4-headed monster like that has a higher chance of winning it all than just Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka

 

Cleveland is having the craziest offseason ever. New coach and GM. Luck out and get the #1 pick. Lebron decides to come back. Trade Wiggins for Love, who will extend for five years. No hard planning necessary, just go from trash to contender in a matter of months.

 

You don't need motion offense to beat the Spurs when no one on the Spurs can check James Harden. They couldn't even defend him when he was the only option for the Rockets, much less one that features Ibaka, Durant, and Westbrook.

Probably no more than they can exploit Derek Fisher.

 

But they did well against the WEST. They did not beat up the East like most Western teams did. But they did very well against those Western teams. the point about "if they were in the East" argument is not so much about "if they played in the East" but about their records. They had decent records.

I think there were a thread during last season on why the Wolves were so bad in close games. As Simmons pointed out, their point differential does not match the expected winning percentage.

Anyway, what I was trying to say is that they were not a "terrible" team as some posters put it (mostly to imply that Love is just a stat padder who can't win). And missing the playoffs is not as bad as it sounds in the Western Conference. The Melo led Knicks were much worse yet a lot of people would prefer Melo over Love.

 

Did the Wolves have a better starting five than the Suns? I'd say so

Did the Wolves have a better starting five than the Mavs? I think you can make a strong argument

Yet, the Wolves weren't even in the conversation for the last playoff spot. That means there were plenty of issues within the Wolves organization and that includes having a franchise player either can't do enough statistically or can't lead.

 

The Spurs struggle with athletic teams. I don't think SA would have beaten OKC if Ibaka never got hurt. The thunder owned them before his injury. I'm certain they would not have beaten OKC with Harden.

SA needs to send thank you cards to Presti for trading Harden and opening their window back up.

 

I don't know. How good is this starting lineup?

Pekovic (a center who missed half of the season)
Love
Brewer (a journeyman SF who can't shoot the 3)
Martin (a fool's gold SG :grin
Rubio (a PG who can't shoot the 3 AND the 2)

Their key bench players were Cunningham, Barea, Mbah a Moute, and Dieng. (Budinger missed half of the season.)

And the injuries. They only had 5 guys who played more than 70 games. The rest of the players were either not healthy enough or not good enough to play a full season.

Again, I don't see Love as a alpha guy on a contender. But to make it like he is only good statistically on a bad team is not looking at the real picture of the Wolves team.

 

http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/

Rebuttal: Poor defensive teams usually miss the playoffs, right? Well, SportVU measures the opposing field goal percentage of every rim protector (from 1 to 5 feet). Of anyone averaging 30-plus minutes per game at power forward or center last season, the NBA’s five worst interior defenders were Thaddeus Young (60.2% FG), Tristan Thompson (59.1%), Kevin Love (57.4%), Nikola Vucevic (56.4%) and Nikola Pekovic (55.2%). By that same criterion, the NBA’s worst shot-blockers were Zach Randolph at 0.3 blocks per game, David Lee, Thompson and Pekovic at 0.4 blocks, then Love, Young and Glen Davis at 0.5 blocks. Yes, Love and Pekovic were Minnesota’s two highest-paid players last season.

 

Whereas you had a team like Phoenix who:

-only had Bledsoe for 43 games
-had a hot start by Plumlee at center only to fall straight back to earth (I had him on my fantasy basketball team)
-a platoon at Power Forward because they didn't have one legit PF
-Ish Smith playing significant time

and yet they managed to get 48 wins versus Minnesota's 40. Injuries occurred, yes, but Love, Rubio, Brewer, and Martin were relatively healthy for most of the year.

And I agree he's better as a Second Banana. But I still haven't heard a good rebuttal to something I've mentioned a couple of times already: How is it that Harden, in his FIRST year on the Rockets and first year as the alpha dog, got Houston to the playoffs but Kevin Love couldn't do the same thing?

I think Rubio v. Lin, Martin v. Harden, Brewer v. Parsons, Love v. our platoon, Peckoviv v. Asik could be a fairly even comparison if you're talking about starting 5.

 

Love and Pek magnify each others weaknesses on defense. The T-Wolves had to make a decision on Pek and decided to overpay instead of losing him for nothing. It was a tough call.

 

Weren't they bidding against themselves? IIRC, it was a very Bledsoe-esq signing in terms of how long it took. Also, I don't think it was a terrible deal, it should look better in the new CBA and he'll perform better with a defensive PF in Dieng (rather than Love).

 

Forget the playoffs. Why has the dude never had a winning record? Are folks really arguing that he hasn't had enough talent to have a winning record in any season?

 

The Suns exceeded most people's expectations. I would attribute that to two main factors (not in order of importance):

(1) Dragic playing out of his mind. TBH, I think Dragic did more for the Suns last year than Harden did in his first season with the Rockets.

(2) Hornacek's coaching. We hate the guy because of his Utah connection. But the dude can coach.

Ironically, the Rockets were like the Suns after the demise of the Yao-Mac tandem. We kept overachieving and the coach was none other than Rick Adelman who coached the Wolves. The old man has lost his mojo.

If you want to compare Harden and Love, let's lay our the rest of the lineup:

Asik, platoon, Parsons, Lin
Pekovic, Brewer, Martin, Rubio

-- A full season Asik is clearly better than a half season Pekovic. I think this is the biggest difference.
-- Brewer and Parsons is kind of a wash. Brewer is a better defender. Parsons is a better offensive player. Most people would say that Parsons is slightly better overall.
-- Lin and Rubio is hard to compare. Rubio is a better passer and defender. Lin is a much better shooter and scorer. Both are TO prone. They are pretty much a wash.
-- Martin and the Rockets PF platoon. Martin is clearly the best scorer among the bunch. But his defense is poor. Patterson was quite decent before he was traded. Jones and DMo took turn being brilliant and sucking. I'd give a slight edge to Martin.

Again, losing their starting center was huge. The rest of the starters were about even overall.

 

Kevin Love's only had 3 seasons of starting and playing over 30 minutes a game, starting in the 2010-11 season at age 22.

2010-2011 Kevin Love’s first year starting, Beasley, Anthony Randolph, Ridnour, Webster, Wes Johnson, Darko and Brewer were the teams top 7 players in minutes and games played. Is it any wonder they were horrible? Love missed 9 games, the Wolves were 0-9.

2011-2012 Minnesota's record was 26-40. The Wolves with KLove were 24-31 (44%) and 2-9 (22%) without.

In 2012-13 the Wolves were 31-51 (37%) KLoved play only 18 games. The Wolves with Love were 10-8 (55%) and 21-43 (32%) without.

In 2013-14 the Wolves were 40-42 KLove missed 5 games, the team was 39-38 with Love and 1-4 without.

Clearly Kevin Love is not Lebron James or Durant or Prime Dwight Howard, able to single handedly drag a team to the playoffs. But the fact of the matter is, the Twolves minus Klove is an absolutely horrible pitiful team. In 4 years their record without Love is 24-65 (26%).

Even discounting the 2010-11 season when the Wolves were terrible with or without love, from 2011-12 to 2014 the Wolves has been 24-56 (30%) and 73-77 (48%). That is a huge difference in an 82 game season. The equivalence of a 25 win team like utah this past season or a 40 win team like Minnesota.

Kevin Love is not as good as James, Durant or Prime Dhoward etc, but is it really that surprising that he couldn't lift a 25 win team without him to a 45+ win team by himself and to do so in essentially only 3 season?

 

As individual players? sure but that's not how the sport is played.

Minnesota had two front court players that can't protect the rim (they looked better with Dieng, despite him not being better than Pek), a wing who can't shoot, another who can't defend and a point guard that can't either.

Phoenix were running an energy team, penetrating guards with a stretch 4 to open space, an active center and a defensive wing who could shoot the 3, it was basically a D'antoni team.

Infinitely better synergy on that phoenix team.

 

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NBA?src=hash">#NBA</a> Store is refunding purchases of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cavaliers?src=hash">#Cavaliers</a> Andrew Wiggins jerseys --&gt; <a href="http://t.co/L8lSRrSOB0">http://t.co/L8lSRrSOB0</a> <a href="http://t.co/lFTtI2WPn5">pic.twitter.com/lFTtI2WPn5</a></p>&mdash; Yahoo Sports (@YahooSports) <a href="https://twitter.com/YahooSports/statuses/497861311880241153">August 8, 2014</a></blockquote>
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Wow:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Report: NBA could block Kevin Love trade if agreement for him to sign long-term in Cleveland is already in place <a href="http://t.co/VsDG9AgHwO">http://t.co/VsDG9AgHwO</a></p>&mdash; Kurt Helin (@basketballtalk) <a href="https://twitter.com/basketballtalk/statuses/497935746519400449">August 9, 2014</a></blockquote>
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