We'll just have to disagree. I thought giving Gaza back to Egypt because of Hamas was an interesting idea, but regardless, I see the two state solution based on the pre-'67 borders as the only reasonable option out there. Even if Egypt did assume responsibilty for Gaza, and that's very, very unlikely, the West Bank would obviously have to become a Palestinian State. Risks have to be taken in order to achieve peace, in my opinion. Risks taken by both sides.
I don't think it's okay for a group of outsiders to decide that the Palestinian people now belong to Egypt and/or Jordan. That would be up to Palestinians if they wanted to make that choice. It's kind of insulting for people to sit around just give the Palestinians away to another nation.
There are more Muslims than Jews. Ratio doesn't matter whether it is 9:1 or 2:1. In a democracy it's enough. What you seem to not understand is that where will all those Palestinians go? israel can't force them out. They are stuck with them. It has nothing to do with the U.S. I think your understanding of what is going on there is very very limited.
I think both you and Tree Rollins have yet to show how a 2 state solution would actually be viable for either side. Do you think the settlers will actually leave the west bank? How will the west bank and gaza connect even? Israel will never give Gaza nor the West Bank control of its borders for security reasons. A 2 state solution is a pipe dream.
Would they take some of them? Maybe, all of them? Certainly not. That's why you'd have to get several nations involved so that no one had to take too many and I think the only way it would work is if they got citizenship wherever they landed because they've tried the refugee route before and Jordan ended up killing more Palestinians than Israel does. Saudi probably wouldn't go along with it, but if you could find 10 or 12 nations willing to take a portion of them, I think you could re-locate them successfully. I think getting them away from the situation would do a lot of good both for the region and for the Palestinian people.
Corridors similar to those used to connect Berlin to West Germany during the Cold War would work. Israel would have to abandon the settlements in the West Bank. Giving them to the Palestinians as reparations instead of blowing them up, apartments for around 600,000 people, would go a long way towards making peace possible, in my opinion. A pipe dream? Thomas Edward Lawrence once said, "Nothing is written." What he meant was, nothing is impossible, nothing is pre-ordained. I think that's an interesting way of looking at things. Why predict failure before making the attempt? What was ironic to me about the quote from Lawrence is that he wrote it. In other words, it was written. It was in Seven Pillars of Wisdom.
Well it was a joke sort of, but the message wasn't. They don't have an "innate inner-terrorist" but they don't really want peace either. My point was that no one thinks that the Palestinians would permanently stop attacking Israel so long as there is an Israel. A two state solution based on the '67 borders wouldn't cause lasting peace because the Palestinians don't really want peace.
I don't think you try hard enough. You are still stuck with your pre 1967 trip to Israel. You haven't tried hard enough to move on and assimilate new facts with which to weigh the culpability and motivations of both opposing parties.. You claim realism, but I don't see much of that or idealism. The reality is that the Israel was based on brutal ethnic cleansing and the country is getting brutally worse. Overall Israel does not want a Palestinian viable state. Netanyahu just said it explicitly a month or two ago. (Try some googling) Actions speak louder than words. Why do they keep building settlements.? which in the opinions of many make it a physical impossibility to have a viable state that only a totally beaten, starved and brutalized Palestinian population would accept. How stable will that be? The United States and the many "good German" types who accept the flimsiest excuses from Israel are to be blamed for enabling the Israeli atrocities. Realistically the US could bring Israel to heel in short order but given the ability of the Israel Lobby to buy politicians in our corrupt pay to play system with no countervailing money it will be a great while till the wheel turns. As an aside I like what Jesse Jackson said years ago: "The Palestinians and the Israelis are locked in a death grip and it should be the US who steps in to pry them apart. Instead we essentially scheme with the Israelis to crush the Palestinians despite doing great harm to our own standing in the world.
Israel won't give up the settlements. Even in that unlikely scenario settlers would simply refuse to leave. It's now their home. Generations are passing there. Where will you resettle those people? Also like I said, Israel will still control their borders as it is too much of a security risk. So Palestine would never be a truly autonomous state and really able to grow economically. The only logical pathway to peace as I see it is if Israel and the world community makes massive investment in education and infrastructure into the west bank and gaza along with massive amounts of economic aid to transform those areas into thriving economies. But for that to happen, israel has to stop destroying Gaza.
I'll refrain from personal insults but just to clarify in case you misunderstood... If Arabs outnumber Jews is irrelevant. Israel can sustain the status quo of dicing up the West Bank and making it a part of de facto greater Israel while largely ignoring the Palestinian population there. Gaza, with potentially massive offshore natural gas reserves will stay sometching like it is now with Israel controlling land and water. Israel has the diplomatic and economic power to do this and a more and more right wing electorate. Israel won't technically annex the West Bank and The Palestinians will essentially be screwed. I'm not sure why you mentioned me as trying to convince you that a two state solution is realistic. I agree it's a pipe dream but one state where everyone has equal rights is also a pipe dream.
Netanyahu is Israel's George W. Bush, in my opinion. He isn't the Israeli people. He's part of a governing coalition that caters to the small far-right parties that keep him in power. Think "tea party" and the GOP. It will likely take the fall of his coalition, new elections, and a relatively moderate coalition to build any sort of a peace. As for the Israeli West Bank settlements, making peace will be painful. If those "settlers," AKA "thieves," have to be forcibly removed, so be it. I don't see a settlement that will work unless Israel removes the illegal "settlers." The likely outcome of that is the destruction of a hell of a lot of valuable housing. My desire would be to avoid that, and give that housing to the Palestinian people to use as they wish. You can say that isn't realistic, and that's fair, perhaps it's not. Certainly, big changes would have to happen on both sides for a peace settlement to occur, but your idea wasn't realistic either, in my opinion. To make peace, Israel has to learn to live with its neighbors, and they have to learn to live with Israel. Jordan and Egypt have managed it, so it isn't impossible. As for my trip to the region in the 1960's, it sparked my interest and gave me a bit of a different perspective. I value that, even if others don't.
Glynch- I could not get any of the palastinian here to answer my question, so in your permission, I'll continue the discussion with you. I understand that you don't believe in a country that is based upon religion, that means that the Jews should not have their own state. The problem with that in my mind as a Jew for example, just by following your line of thinking- should the Jews live under the Arab rule? That sounds like a good idea to me. Not! unless you want dead Jews and then your fine. Arabs in Israel have complete right and freedom to practice their religion, with no law discrimination. Unless you're referring to the "right of return" which mean that the arabs that flee the country during the 48 war (500,000 back then which is 5 million today) will return to Israel, there's just one problem with that- there is no room for 6 million Jews and 7 million Arabs in a country that is 8000 square miles (can fit inside Texas 33 times). Or, and that is also an option, should the Jews go back to where they came from (and we will leave the debate about the exile of the Jews and the myth about the actual invented reality of "palastinian people" because its old, not productive and should be passed upon) So Arab countries are out of the question to the new countryless Jews, so where would they go? Europe? Oh that sounds like a great idea, unless your memory takes you back 70 years ago and your eyes look what is going on in Europe today. So the only place i will feel safe as a jew is the US, and even here, I just randomly met a guy in Newport, Rhode Island, 2 months ago that was approaching to random people in the street and preach for the killing of all Jews... mmm that made me feel really happy that I have a country and an army to defend me in case history will repeat itself. Anyway I hope you understand why I think the Jews have no other choice but to have their own country and their own military. Now from there the only way going forward in my opinion is a 2 state solution based upon the 67' borders, one for the Palastinian people and one for the Jewish people (with everyone in any religion as a complete equal citizen, something I do not expect from the new palastinian country). I just can't find any Palastinian to agree with me on that, which means they want me dead, which means we're back to the same stupid circle of pointless war. And you, my peaceful friend continue to act like hypocrite (not specific you but the european way of thinking that you so greatly represent), and cause more war, violence and death. Once I find someone from the palastinian side that support the right of Israel to exist as a jewish state next to the Palastinian state based on the 67' borders with no further demand for the "stolen" land, tears will go in my eyes because I will know there is hope
If you think that is plausible in a 100 years than I think you're being very unrealistic. If you look at the history Israel is having a harder time both internationally and domestically of treating Gaza like a ghetto. While the population is backing the latest military endeavor, it is not likely to hold. Furthermore the Palestinians are weak right now unable to hit Israel. That will change over the course of time. They will find weapons that will inflict damage - the determination is there. You can't keep millions of people living in a ghetto for generations after generations. Domestically and internationally pressure will mount. Even a right wing gov't will not be able to stem the tide. Israel will face a tough choice. If it succeeds is neutralizing future Palestinian threats and other Arab countries as well, it will only paint itself as being even more unjust as years passes with a people living in a prison and yet being harmless. Political pressure will mount. If Israel does not succeed in neutralizing the threat, than it's continuous warfare threatens to finally escalate into something nightmarish which will bring casualties to both side that truly will be tragic and devastating. The path you suggest is so dangerous. By the way, pretending to show self-restraint by saying you will not use insults only makes you come across as pompous.
Good news for peace and justice in Palestine in the long run. Attitudes are changing here in America and we definitely have the power to bring Israel to stop the aggression. It should be noted that even younger Jews are becoming deeply offended by Israel's actions. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/n...ng-americans-overwhelmingly-support-palestine ********* While a 22-23 July Gallup poll found that a slight majority of Americans believe that Israel's latest assault on Gaza is justified, a pro-Israel bias that also dominated during the second intifada, amongst those under the age of 30, more than twice as many Americans say that Israel's aggression in Gaza is unjustified (51 per cent) than those who say it is justified (25 per cent). The same holds true for people of colour (49 per cent versus 25 per cent). Both the popular demonstrations and the poll results seem to indicate that support for Israel is growing weaker amongst the next generation of American leaders.
