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First of all, Israel chose its neighbours. Hand picked. There were allegedly other options for other neighbours. Jews chose these neighbours and these co-habitants and the people who granted it to them knew exactly what the situation was and would become. This is not like being in a neighbourhood and discovering your neighbours hate you. This is choosing a neighbourhood where people are already living, bribing a bank official to foreclose on an existing tenant, moving in with 4 bazookas, building a wall and bribing officials to receive security for your compound - and then whining that your neighbours hate you. Second of all, there is no country in the world which would tolerate the sudden existence of a new country in their territory without their approval. It just doesn't happen. It is an act of war. It is the equivalent of America granting Cornish people a state of their own in Guantanamo. It is an act of war on the people who live in and own those lands, and an unprecedented one at that. Finally, Hamas the organization does not call for the murder of all Israelis or Jews. It is calling for exactly what was done to it, the delisting of the state of Israeli as a nation state, restoration of Palestinian governance of the land and ostensibly right of return for Palestinians to the homes and the lands for which they literally still have the keys and the deeds. The stated claim does not include the mass deportation of former Israelis from lands that they legitimately own - as was done to Palestinians. It does not include some holocaust of Jews. There ARE members of Hamas as well as just general right wing Palestinians who call for the murder of all Jews, and they are in equal proportion to members of Israeli government and just general right wing Israelis who call for the inverse. I know this is hard to imagine for you - the idea that a country full of people being displaced, some of their homes being given away and infrastructure shattered in order to make way for new infrastructure. This idea, however, is much more viable to Israelis and Palestinians because they have seen it happen in front of their eyes for 70ish years. For Israelis, that means they can never allow it to come close to happening. For Hamas, it means it's possible. For everyone else, the idea SEEMS absurd because they have never really seen it happen systematically in the way Israelis and Palestinians have experienced it. While these are all unrealistic goals and filled with hatred, they still do not amount to a genocide which you either intentionally or unintentionally implied here. Further, both Israel (with Fatah) and the United States (Saddam) have supported or allied with groups that have made the same claims so it is unlikely that these claims are actual stumbling blocks in a peace process. There are no significant groups in the world in the world calling for a genocide of Jews for being Jews. The last ones to do so were in Europe, and those groups mind you are re-emerging in Europe.
They imply genocide to their children. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/57Q8K5TmivM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
It seems like there has been a lot of the discussion is around which side is worse. I don't think there is a definitive answer. It's a matter of what's worse to different people. Is it worse to do as Hamas as done and hide military weapons among civilians when there it is almost certain those areas will be attacked? And to deliberately target civilians as Hamas has done with suicide bombings? And to fire rockets at civilian areas when there are no military weapons being hidden there? or Is it worse to oppress an entire population based on their ethnicity? And steal their homes? And not allow them the resources to support themselves? And make laws that discriminate against them based on their ethnicity? And to take little precaution when bombing and have little regard with collateral damage? And to occasionally intentionally use Palestinian children as human shields as Israel has done? I'm not sure which one is worse, and people could make arguments for either side being worse. However, out of all of things there are a number of them that both sides can stop doing that would probably have a much better chance at achieving peace than both sides continuing on with the things on that list which never brings about a lasting peace, and just inspires people to keep doing those ineffective things.
Actually Mathloom, Hamas DOES talk specifically about killing Jews. They quote their prophet saying that killing Jews had to happen:
One need not look to some decades old document to find vitriolic, genocidal rhetoric emanating from the minds and hearts of Israeli officials and civilians. I would link you to some videos and reports but you're a talented, competent web user, use google. Or just buy Goliath by Max Blumenthal and read.
The exact same post could be made about Hamas. Their leaders talk about death and murder all the time. The leader of Hamas praised the murder of the the three Israeli teens and called their killer(s) hero(es).
No one is denying that Israel has its fair share of racists. But explicitly stating an intent to kill Jews hiding behind rocks and trees in your party's charter is akin to hypothetically if the U.S. Republican party in their official platform stating that their ultimate goal is to kill all Muslims.
Ok so why is it that we treat one group like "terrorist scum", as Joan Rivers advocates, simply because a supposed terrorist group operates among them and we treat the other group as if it is some darling democracy to be worshipped, a bastion of enlightened souls with not a hateful thought to their names? Hamas and the Zionazi government are much alike. Only Israel is significantly more effective at ethnic cleansing and murdering civilians while Hamas more crudely approaches the art of selling oneself to the world, i.e. public relations.
What did Khaled Meshaal say in his interview with Charlie Rose a few days ago? Methinks you do not know what he said, much less who he is.
I agree with you, and it is why I have sympathy for Palestine. Basically the same as your first point, but yes I agree. My only caveat is that there was that whole WWII issue, and whom supported whom. That is an odd equivalence. Nope, Hamas wants the complete destruction and death to Israel. Further, lets not down play the level of hatred Muslims for Jews. Similar things have happened historically, but yes, it doesn't end well. Stumbling blocks for peace from the United States position? Possibly not, but Jews are strongly entrenced politically in the United States so I would not necessarily assume that. I was wondering when the "it isn't so bad" line would come out........
Well one group is "terrorist scum" and the other isn't. You may disagree with things Israeli military does (and often even should), but they do so as a legitimate nation.
First of all, that's not in their charter. That WAS in their charter in 1988. Do you want to look at old charters of the Zionists who established Israel? Zionists resorted to terrorism to achieve their aims, and Palestinians are doing the same. It is no mystery that their charters will include such stuff on both sides. Second of all, this is not an article in the charter even in 1988. This is what they claim is a goal of the Islamic Resistance Movement - i.e. NOT Hamas. I think you must be reading from some shoddy sources. Article 7. Here is the link to the 1988 charter: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp Third, what the Prophet says is not Quran. The Prophet of Islam is not divine like Jesus. This piece you quoted is Hadith - i.e. words loosely attributed to the Prophet by an Iranian man who sacrilegiously claims divine communication with God at least one hundred years after the Prophet passed. Further, this is not a demand for anything to happen. This passage - according to the attached Tafsir - is in relation to the Jews in Yathrib and Southern Yemen. You see there were no countries. It's like me ordering Pizza from an Italian place and finding hair in it. Then I say "This night won't end till I kill those Italians." That doesn't mean ALL ITALIANS lol. In this particular hadith, he's referring to a group of Jews with which they had political differences and were about to go to war with. The explanation is available in the two referenced sources of that passage. Given you used them I assume you know what they are and how to navigate them. If not, give me a shout and I'll fill you in. Fourth, quite plainly, Hamas is not trying to kill all Jews because there is too much money at stake for them. It cannot kill all Jews. It should not kill all Jews. It will never kill all Jews. It doesn't seriously believe it can kill all Jews. There are millions of Jews around the world. They cannot even reach those people. There is a powerful military force protecting the ones next to it. I'm not saying there are not some people currently part of or in the past part of Hamas who think killing all Jews is some divine decree - I'm just saying that in 2014, this is not the stated or the deducible goal of Hamas the organization. I am also stating that, if it were, they would not be able to achieve it not only because of their lack of weapons but also because of a lack of political support from both the international community and within that the Muslim community.
Legitimate because Jesus right? Or legitimate because Holocaust? Or legitimate because democracy? You simple fool. Such claims trash the meaning of words like democracy, abuse the memory of those who we lost in the Holocaust, and use Jesus' name to justify the slaughter of children. On what flimsy, illogical but ideological grounds do you justify Israel's legitimacy? Certainly, they are racially/religiously motivated grounds, and if not, it's probably the xenophobic rage within you that compels you to legitimize the ethnic cleansing of an entire people. **** ain't healthy homie.
Wow, didn't realize so many people attacked MY credibility on a post like this. If that's the case, justtxytank, let's see your source for this post please. I want the exact website.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/0ORAM-usqhQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Well maybe they should tell their children that killing all Jews is not part of the plan.
Wow, what a terrible post. Where to start? You know what, I'm not even going to bother, you are a lost cause. They need to create a whole new logical fallacy for you, we can call it argumentum ad frutex. One is an internationally recognized nation that uses military actions, the other is basically a terrorist state. The fact that you aren't honest/intelligent enough to tell the difference is simply ridiculous.
