Are they going to kill their way through the West Bank as well? http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...an-west-bank-clashes-2014724213831750431.html say goodbye to negotiating with Fatah. A long long war in store if people don't get to their senses. But I suppose the easy answer here is---"who cares if the war lasts 100 years?"
If neither side wants to negotiate, and neither side can be defeated, what's the alternative? Like I've observed, this isn't exactly an unusual situation. Most historical conflicts simmer for hundreds of years, with bouts of serious fighting.
Well in this instance, one side could be fairly easily defeated, but the other side is never going to do that for whatever reason. This would have been over LONG ago if one side just decided to win fully.
Right, legally. What about illegally? I'm asking why Egypt should take in 1.6 million people and grant them citizenship? They'd have to cross the border illegally. And you see what's happening in Egypt. They have their own issues and they already closed the rafah border and turned back Tunisian aid for Gaza. Palestinians have no where to go. Not that they should have to go anywhere.
Read my previous post about bbc reporting that Hamas does not use them as human shields. I don't think there is any basis to this argument anymore. People love using it as an excuse.
We don't live in the past. Instantaneous communication, multi-lateral bodies that encompass the world, and developed bodies of law have developed for a reason. The alternative is very very clear---a two-state solution. But yeah, if the premise of your question is "if there is no hope and no new ideas for the next century---will there be any hope or no new ideas for the next century?" then I suppose that's how self-fulfilling prophecies work.
They already "illegally" smuggle guns and rockets across the border, why not people? Also, no one expects Egypt to grant them citizenship. Remember my Panama comparison, Egypt is not a destination, it is just part of the trip. As to having "nowhere to go" there's a whole world out there. LOL, you continue to embarrass yourself over a previous conversation you failed to grasp. It's okay, I don't mind.
Judo's "problem" was that he responded to a post I didn't make. The policies of the last several years reflect the policies of a far-right government of Israel, policies that many Israelis, from talking to my Jewish friends with relatives living there, do not agree with. A majority of Jews in the United States don't agree with those policies, in my opinion. However, they will not stand for attacks on Israeli soil. As long as Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, as I said in an earlier post, we will see these kinds of conflicts erupt from time to time. A tragedy. The best thing to happen for both the Palestinians and the Israelis would be a change of government in both countries, particularly in Gaza and Israel. When a government declares that they want to wipe your country off the face of the Earth, that government is going to be seen as an enemy, and the country threatened with extinction will treat said government as such. The people of Gaza should throw out Hamas in elections. The people in Israel should throw out the current government and replace it with a more moderate one that truly has a desire for peace. The government of the West Bank under Abbas announced in April that it was forming a "unity government" with Hamas, one that Abbas said would recognize the state of Israel. So far, that's not working out too well. Extremists on both sides, in my opinion, are doing what they can to scuttle any chance for peace. Eventually, there will be peace, but I seriously doubt that the present Israeli government, or a Palestinian government with Hamas as a major player, will be a party to that peace. Peace will come after major changes in both countries. All my opinion, of course. I completely agree that the Israeli "settlements" are an illegal occupation of Palestine. That the Israeli control of East Jeruselem is illegal. In my opinion, the Old City of Jeruselem should be under international control, belonging, essentially, to no government, belonging to everyone in the world. The West Bank should be an independent state with corridors to Gaza under Palestinian control. The illegal settlements in the West Bank should be given to the Palestinian people as compensation for what they have been through, not blown up because Israel has to leave them, a real possibility. I have a lot of opinions about this matter that don't fall under the broad bull**** ideas of some of the people here. I truly think there can be peace, but Israel will always have to be ready to defend herself against the mad theocratic governments outside of Palestine. Nothing will be easy. Peace rarely is.
Only the first one of those three matters. People misunderstand the role of organizations of the UN, possibly because Roosevelt was really that deluded in his visions of the postwar world. The UN is a diplomatic club. Nothing more. Hamas won't negotiate because of its ideology and because it ultimately becomes irrelevant without Israel, and Israel won't negotiate because time is on its side and they're winning. And what does it matter to America what Israel or Hamas does to one another? Perhaps once upon a time one could argue 'well, if we get the two to stop fighting, we'll bring peace to the Middle East and that's good for American strategic interests." I think recent events have made it clear that's a load of bunk, and that the Israel-Palestine war is ultimately irrelevant to the Middle East, much less the world. Heck, more people were just killed in fighting between the Islamic State and Syria in the past two days than in the entirety of this Gaza operation. That is a place of immense strategic importance, not this sideshow.
You're comparing Rome to Israel, you literally compared the Dark Ages---to now. As irrelevant as you may think the UN is, the fact that the world can compose itself into organs---indeed the fact that the entirety of the planet is known to each other---I'd think would be a huge step forward, delusions or not. I mean even if we hewed to caring only about American strategic interests and not say friends and their family in the region or any human connection---you can't argue that a nation-state the United States constantly erodes its soft power to protect can be pooh-poohed. The entire shape of the Middle East has been changed by Israel and the regimes America has had to support to maintain some semblance of order in the region. On that alone, even if you won't think it matters---it will matter. You can say this or that is a place of great strategic interest---the fact is Israel will always be a place of central strategic interest. Decades of investment have forced it to be so.
Yet the policies today are far more tame than Israel of past. I mean, do you know they used to just bulldoze people and roll over them? That was 10 years ago! And it was worse in the 80's and 90's. It was worse in the 50's and 60's and so on. If you find today's gov't reprehensible and right wing, what do you call the past ones? Do you understand what the Gaza Strip is and how a huge chunk of people who used to live across the entire state of Israel got squeezed into this little strip of land to the point it has the highest population density in the entire world??? Yeah, no kidding they are pissed and want to get revenge. Hamas has no power to do anything to Israel. Israel only has to undermine Hamas, not play into it's hand. But it plays into its hand because it's good politically for maintaining power. And the people of Gaza see Hamas as the only one that fights for them and cares about them. Hamas actually does tons of community service. Maybe if Israel didn't make Gazans life so miserable there wouldn't need to be a Hamas. Israel has to take responsibility for creating a longer lasting peace. Right now it is not an honest broker. The settlements are just one issue of many. What Israel has to do is show they respect their neighbors and that they actually give a damn about their human suffering and treat them like human being and not poorly behaving pigs that should be penned up like animals. People think Hamas is the instigator. That ignores the history of how Israel came into existence. They didn't buy land from Palestinians. They took it. And that is the crux of the problem. Israel's neighbors haven't forgotten that as much as many Americans never knew it and Israeli's have a very distorted view of their own history. Until that gets addressed, it will be very hard to make peace.
Today, they are. Except of course when they did buy it. Of course even on those occasions, the non-landowning Palestinians living on the territory that was purchased claimed that the purchase wasn't legitimate or that somehow they really owned the land but they just tied their land in with a larger landowner for some reason....whatever. I would argue that the crux of the problem is that there is a people that convince themselves that all of their problems are because someone else wronged them. They fool themselves into thinking they are the rightful owners of land they don't, and won't ever own and it prevents them from advancement. Until the Palestinians figure out that the war is lost, that they are never going to destroy Israel, they'll be doomed to suffer. Giving up their foolish ambitions of conquest would be the first step towards peace and towards greatly improving their people's quality of life.
Buy it? on what, the 5 occasions? hundreds of thousands were displaced by force. Many were killed. They were chased out. Don't rewrite history. Their war is not lost. They may never destroy Israel but that is not their objective ultimately. They are the conquested, not the conquestor. Stuffed into a tiny piece of land called the gaza strip is an embarrassment to humanity. All because they weren't the right religion.
Good post overall. Though l think the Palestinians need to get over that Israelis took the lands away from them. Its done and they need to move on. However, Israel needs to understand that they cant treat people like they are especially when they are in the position of extreme power relative to their foes. The reaction is extreme to the point of cruelty.
Yeah why don't you pitch in and buy all those people a flight ticket? Egypt will not let them in. What do you not understand about that? And I still can't believe I'm talking to someone who is ok with killing 800,000 innocent children for "the greater good."
And that group of delusional land grabbing people is called....the Israelis. These are such easy words to repeat over the internet by a stranger isn't it? Just give up after being pushed out of your land and be treated like livestocks by your enemies?
So I guess the answer to my original question is that yes you are going to ignore the fact that Palestinians don't have a sustainable land to govern, live in, or run. That's all I need to know.
You are trying to re-write history by denying that numerous large plots of land were purchased. Sure there was also land that was taken, but you shouldn't omit things that go against the narrative you are trying to push. It's also sad that you think their war isn't lost. Holding on they way they are is what's keeping them down. They don't own that land, it's not theirs. If they were to take it, they would be stealing it. I do agree that they shouldn't be stuffed into a "tiny piece of land called the gaza strip" though, Israel should have shoved them off that land and across the Sinai Peninsula to get them out of their hair back in '67. The Palestinians would be a lot better for it today had that happened. So they should care what Egypt thinks on the matter? If you can smuggle weapons in, you can smuggle people out. Simple as that. The Israelis didn't do anything that the Palestinians (though they didn't ever call themselves that at the time) didn't do to the people they conquered the land from which is the same that the people who conquered the land before them and so on. Point is, it's over, they lost. It's not their land anymore. Either they can sit around and be bitter about it or they can get over it and work to help their people. So far, they've chosen to be bitter about it and they've suffered for it.
Sustainable land to govern, live in, and run isn't a right, it's a luxury and one they can't afford at the moment...which is why a lot of them should simply leave and seek out a new place to live rather than hoping to conquer or be gifted land from their neighbors.
