I think they should be happy that they gave them any of Gaza....I mean, they didn't really have to. If it's such bad land, they should probably leave and make their home elsewhere. I'm sure the Israelis would love to make settlements there.
First of all they aren't allowed to move around and can't really get out at the moment. Secondly they should only be happy if it is something sustainable.
I already admitted that genocide was too strong of a word and not the right term. If I offended you, I apologize. But yes, Israel practiced ethnic cleansing and their stated aim and plan was to drive out Palestinians in any way they could - through force, murder, starvation, forced marches, terrorism - whatever means they needed to. They colonized and created a Jewish state and homeland by displacing the original inhabitants. It was not just in any shape or form. I don't understand why you say that is wrong? It is the factual history of what happened. The Palestinians in Gaza are the children and grandchildren of those who were so cruelly displaced. Whose miserable lives are a direct result of Zionist policies from the 1800's through the 1960's and beyond. Do two wrong makes a right? Of course not. But you can't ignore that history in considering the path towards peace. And I think that is all I am trying to say.
First of all, they manage to smuggle in rockets and other weapons, they can smuggle themselves out of the country. Secondly, if they aren't happy, they should leave, perhaps using the same tunnels used to resupply their weapons. There's nothing saying they have to live there, if it's such a burden, abandon the territory and see if someone else can do a better job. Also, perhaps they'd have made the area sustainable if they put as much money and effort into building up an infrastructure as they do trying to attack Israel.
Leave where? To Egypt? The Sinai is a freaking lawless mess as well and the Egyptians dont want the Palestinians. They're as hostile to Gazans as the Israelis are. Even if they escaped to Egypt, they would struggle to find jobs, housing, etc.. Also the Sinai is a desert. Just traversing the peninsula is a harrowing experience. The other options are getting on a boat to leave but Israel has a full naval blockade in force. The third option is getting into Israel somehow and that's more or less impossible.
My post was in response to your use of the word genocide. In my original response to you, I said that you had "a semblance of an argument," in other words, you were getting to the nut of what Israel, with its current far-right government (thanks to the influence of small political parties that the current goverment needs in order to remain in power due to their bizarre political system, something I mentioned earlier), is doing wrong, in my opinion, in other words, a basis for conversation, but that you went too far. Then Judo jumped in with his, "he's right, and your wrong" post defending what you said, and taking my post out of context. I'm a supporter of the state of Israel, but not at all a supporter of the current government. Hell, I haven't supported an Israeli government for years. There's a difference. It's similar to me ardently supporting the United States, but equally ardent in my criticism of the Bush Administration. Some of the members here, like the idiot I just put on ignore, and the other fellow who posts like he's 16 years old and bored, have no appreciation of nuance. I think you do. Heck, I think Judo does, but seems to have left that ability "at home." Just wanted to clear that up.
I never said it would be easy, but people make the trip from South America to the US every day in a search to improve their lives, are you trying to tell me that Palestinians are incapable of the same sort of trip?
That's never going to happen. Ever. Sure, a lot of the folks in Gaza would like to go somewhere else besides Gaza, but they're thinking of another, nicer spot in the immediate area, and I don't blame them.
Who cares if the conflict last 100 years? The Viets have fought the Chinese for thousands of years. The Germans fought the Romans for hundreds of years, same with England and France. Conflicts like World War 2, where one side decisively triumphs the other, are the exception and not the norm. But as long as Israelis can effectively destroy Palestine whenever they wish, they win. And time is on Israel's side. The West is no longer as dependent on Arabian oil as they used to be, the Arab states are a mess and no longer care about Palestine, and really no one cares about Palestine anymore now that it's clear that a permanent Israel-Palestine really wouldn't solve anything in the Middle East like people thought.
Why are you so adamant about Egypt taking Palestinians in? Would you be ok with the USA taking Mexicans in and giving them all citizenship/green cards?
Hamas is not the same thing as Palestinians. Who said the regular Palestinian citizen has access to the same resources to smuggle themselves, and their family, out of Gaza?
The US does take Mexicans in and give them citizenship and green cards. In fact around a quarter million Mexican nationals come into the US legally every year either getting a green card or naturalization. Egypt wouldn't be a final destination for them, but it would be the natural place for them to use as a hub to the rest of the world. When people from Columbia are trying to get to the US, a lot of the time they have to go through Panama, but they aren't planning to stay there. The same goes for Egypt.
I have faith in their ingenuity. I had a co-worker that walked from central Argentina to America, if he can find a way to pull that off, I think the people of Gaza can find a way out....if they really wanted out. Also, as to Hamas not being the same as Palestinians, right now it's their government, if their government really wanted to help the people, they'd help them get out rather than using them for human shields.
I don't think Judo was agreeing regarding the term genocide but the spirit of the argument that Zionist had done some really horrible things - things that can leave scars for generations. While those acts were not systematic in a way that would constitute genocide, they were meant to clear out Palestinians from their homes and communities to allow for room for Jewish immigrants and a Jewish homeland. It was by the very definition ethnic cleansing. I think the creation of a Jewish state was a travesty of justice that just made a big heaping pile of a mess. The whole world, including Jews would be better off without this state that has led to so much bloodshed and hate not just in that region but fomented so much across the globe. But it's there. And now it's too late. The other thing that bothers me about Israel is that they are still building settlements. To me, that act is a clear indicator of the real goal - which is to continually expand the territory - a Zionist manifest destiny. Palestinians are screwed. They got screwed and they will be screwed. But they do have their ownselves to blame. While they should not make "peace" in my opinion, neither should they make "war". It's a shame they don't have the kind of leadership that could recognize what would give them hope and instead use the tactics that were so effective in defeating Apartheid, kicking the British out of India, and achieving civil rights. If Palestinians did not use violence to resist, but also refused to allow Israel to take their land and force Israel to practice their brutality and not use self-defense as a justification, the Palestinians could get what they want. Which is to make a state where Palestinians have equal rights and are free to move about the land - a land that should be shared by Jews, Christians and Muslims - not through borders but integration. In the modern era, to have a state based on religion/racial lines is simply mind-boggling. Jewish culture thrives very well in NYC - where there are more Jews than in the entire state of Israel. NYC is the true homeland in that sense. Of course that's idealistic and not practical in the current environment, and probably not possible for a very long time. Maybe not a 100 years. And Israel can only do so much. It's really up to Palestine to produce the leadership that can win their people over and truly make a peace. But that will never happen with these types of military action. And it will never happen so long as the settlements are being expanded. That is an act of violence - because it is the shrinking of their homeland - it is attacking their national integrity. To the Palestinians, the act of encroachment is a justification for violence. I mean, if someone started building on your land and refused to go or listen to you, and was carrying guns - you might get pretty pissed off too no? We may call it terrorism, but to them it is just war. To me, it's the stupidest kind of war to fight. One that accomplishes absolutely nothing. Israel's use of force though isn't going to make Palestinians see that, it will only strengthen their resolve and determination to strike back. And that's what should really put fear in everyone who is a support of Israel - because while today the Palestinians are weak and Israel has the iron dome - no one knows what the weapons of tomorrow will be.
