Kobe had one thing that MJ and Lebron didn't have.

Cleveand's entire team was a rebuilding phase. And like the poster above me noted MJ went through a huge team overhaul as well as taking off 18 months from the basketball.

I'll entertain Wilt as the GOAT and perhaps Lebron in time, but right now it's still Mike.

 

I would not call wade in his prime. And gasol was much bettet than bosh.

Kobe was not the best player on his team during most of hia championships. That counts a lot in comparing the all time greats.

 

Micheal Jordan 93 Starting Line up
BJ Armstrong
Micheal Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Horace Grant
Bill Cartwright

Lebron James 03 Starting Line up
Jeff Mcginnis
Ricky Davis
Lebron James
Carlos Boozer
Z.Ilgauskas


Kobe Bryant 2005 Lakers Starting Line up
Smush Parker
Kobe Bryant
Luke Walton
L. Odom
Kwame Brown

No comparison. Kobe's rebuilding team is possibly the worst team ever assembled. Not to mention in a more difficult conference. MJ nor LBJ have ever had a to play with a team this damn pathetic. The fact the Lakers actually made the playoffs is a credit to Kobe's will. Had Jordan had this team, he'd played baseball another few years

 

If he's not in his prime, Wade has still averaged over 20pts in every season Lebron's been there. His numbers say he's still one of the best at his position. As far as Gasol being better than Bosh, that's just ridiculous. Gasol's best season he averaged 20pt & 9reb. Bosh's best season he averaged 24pts & 10reb. At no point their respective careers has Gasol been better than Bosh. If you wanna keep believing that, have at it bro


Kobe's first 3 championships were with Shaq. Yes we've heard it before. But Shaq was never clutch, Shaq's not a playmaker, Shaq's was NEVER a good defender. Kobe was the playmaker/closer on that team. He took a backseat to Shaq and accepted his role as a number 2 option. Without Kobe no 3 championships. It was a partnership just like Jordan/Pippen, and Lebron/Wade/Bosh.

 

Wow I always thought Shaq's only weakness if free throw.

 

And in Bosh's best season, he led the Raptors to a 40-42 record and missed the playoffs. In Gasol's best season, he led the Grizzlies to 49 wins and the 5th seed.

Look at the big picture.

If Shaq was NEVER a good defender, why did he make the all-defensive 2nd team multiple times? And he was an offensive juggernaut. Of course he was a playmaker....

Shaq has proven that as long as he has a star wing player, he can lead a team deep into the postseason. He went to the finals with the Magic (Hardaway), Lakers (Kobe), and Heat (Wade). The "without Kobe, no 3 championships" narrative is nonsense.

 

Yeah, that's not surprising considering he feuded with the best player on the team and forced management to trade that player for pennies on the dollar.

Sure they did. There's a reason that Cleveland had the #1 pick and Chicago had the #3 pick.

Had Jordan had that Lakers team, not only would they have made the playoffs, but we probably would've seen him score 100 pts in a game.

 

A couple things

I agree that MJ is widely considered the GOAT and thats fair enough, but how come Kareem is always left off that list. Kareem's resume stands strong next to ANYONE's.

The GOAT convo is generational, younger folks are partial to the stars they have seen, so everything is about complex defensive schemes and advanced athleticism, and older folks are partial to the stars of their childhood, its all about stories about how no current stars would last in the old eras, and how current players dont have the skill level.

Truth be told its all about bias and protecting your childhood memories,

Kareem
Russell (Duncan if you need a true PF)
Lebron
Jordan
Magic


Top 5 according to position IMO

 

Kobe has had a feud with almost every player on his team since he was a Laker.

 

No matter how you put it, Chris Bosh was always a better player than Pau Gasol. It's no debate. Chris Bosh does more things good than Pau, and the numbers support that.

Lebron has had the most help than any superstar since Magic/Kareem/Worthy. You give me 3 SUPERSTARS w/ THE greatest shooter of all time, aww never mind. You lost this one

Your changing the debate. I'm telling you on the Lakers, Kobe played just a big a role as Shaq did. How? By taking a backseat to Shaq. But he could've damn well lead the league in scoring most of those years had he chose too. How can you give ALL the credit to Shaq when we ALL know he wasn't the one with the ball in his hands down the stretch? How many clutch shots did Shaq hit during that run? You can't give credit to Shaq without giving it to Kobe. Period. It's dishonest

 

Kareem is off my list mainly because he tended to get beaten by other elite centers. Willis Reed had his number. Later on, Moses would eat him alive. Check out playoff figures for those match-ups. Young Hakeem did as well. And his unblockable sky hook was blocked many times by an aging Chamberlain.

 

Not if you're looking at team success.

In your honest opinion, do you think that Bosh/Wade played like superstars these past 2 seasons?

Laughable. It was pretty clear who the Lakers' offense was centered around.

No one gives all the credit to Shaq, but he gets the lion's share, and he deserves it. Kobe was replaceable. Shaq was not.

You may think that Kobe got slighted in that respect, but his last 2 championships make up for it. Even though Pau Gasol was just as important as Kobe, history looks at those teams as Kobe-led teams. In the 2010 finals against the Celtics, how many clutch shots did Kobe hit? I remember Fisher's clutch shots, Gasol's clutch shots, and Artest's clutch shots. Did Kobe hit any? Despite the fact that the Lakers were able to win in spite of Kobe (instead of "because of him"), Kobe still gets credit for "leading" the Lakers to a title.

 

Shaq vs Kobe:

1999-2000 vs Indiana Pacers
Shaq 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

2000-2001 vs Philadelphia
Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG
Kobe 24ppg 7rpg 5apg 41%FG

2001-2002 vs New Jersey Nets
Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG
Kobe 26ppg 5rpg 5apg 51%FG

2003-2004 vs Detroit Pistons
Shaq 26.6 ppg 10.8 rpg 1.6 apg 63.1%FG
Kobe 22.6 ppg 2.8 rpg 4.4 apg 38.1%FG
Kobe nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

Shaq has 3 of the top 10 Finals performances ever:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playo...nist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

Kobe has not ever had a finals performance in the top 50

Top 10 Worst NBA Finals Performances:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playo...=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst

NBA Finals MVP:
Shaq: 3
Kobe: 0

Kobe is definitely overrated as hell, especially for his "clutchness." Shaq was by far and away the better player in every finals he played with Kobe, and it wasn't even close. Kobe arguably has been the WORST superstar to repeatedly go to the finals. Just because he won doesn't mean he played well.

 

If you look at overall stats, Kobe was far behind Shaq. But there are certain moments, such as the game against the Pacers where Shaq fouled out, and the game went to over time. In those circumstances, you can't state that replacing Kobe with someone like McGrady would have yielded the win regardless, because that is simply untrue. Kobe came up big in that win, scoring consecutive baskets that allowed the Lakers to remain ahead.

Also, I really think some of you are biased when you say that Kobe was never the best player on his team in his championship runs. He was definitely the best in 08 up to the defeat by the Celtics (after a monster series against SAS no less), and in 09 where he demolished the Magic in 5. While Pau Gasol and Odom and Fisher played pivotal roles, their statistical impact, as well as spotlight where far less than that of Kobe's.

So to sum up, I do not think Kobe was replaceable on the Lakers 3-peat. While his style of play may have hurt the team's chances at a a longer dynasty, I say Shaq's laziness hurt much more. During the second championship era, Kobe was indeed the best player in the playoffs from 08 to 09. Injuries really limited his accuracy later on in his career, especially the broken fingers on his shooting hand. Even so he managed to win with a great supporting cast.

The ultimate point here is that he won- In a game of so many what-if's, he won. I'm not going to argue whether Kobe belongs in the GOAT conversation. I do think that many posters on the board let their feelings distort there views and say things that I'm sure most basketball analysts would find ludicrous.

 

Wade's peak was higher than Kobe's peak.

 

Pretty much sums it up. Stats do not favor Kobe when compared to other great players. Again, most missed FGs in NBA history, not 1 season with FG over 50%, first 8 years in the NBA as a sidekick. No one else in the top-10 can claim any of these. If Tony Parker wins FMVP next year, he might be on par with Kobe according to ring counters.

 

Listen, I am not arguing if he belongs in the GOAT conversation. The answer is a clear NO. He is not in the same class of a player as Jordan (granted almost nobody is). I would rate him anywhere between 10-16 all time, but those people putting him in their "Mt. Rushmore" or top 5 are completely insane. He is just not that caliber of a player... The stats are just not there to put him above the other greats.

I was also never addressing the point that he was "replaceable," and I believe that he was vital to those teams winning. My point was simply that Shaq was by far the best player on the floor at all times of that run. He was unstoppable and the Kobe fanboys/"laker nation" never give Shaq his proper due. He was THE reason they were so good for so long, and without him, that team would have been consistently lottery bound, even with Kobe (at that stage of his career). As evidenced when Shaq was pushed out of town, they were complete trash.

 

I never counted them as men

 

No, because it doesn't go to overtime with Mcgrady, Kobe was unbelievably **** that series for a 2nd option, they only won because Shaq was basically in his i'm not fat and i'm going to destroy you season.

The level of bull**** surrounding Kobe knows no bounds, now he's getting credit for 2000?!?!?!? Even the most ardent supporters on Kobeground wouldn't give him backing for that year, it takes a special level of homer to go that far.

Kobe was the Scottie Pippen of those 3 titles, yes he was really good for a lot of it, clearly the 2nd best player, emphasis on 2nd, and yes he was replaceable. Shaq was the Jordan, he was unreplacable, you replace Shaq with anyone and they lose in '00 to Indiana and '02 to Sacramento, no ifs ands or buts, if you replaced Kobe with say Mcgrady, you're probably in the same place (since he was a better beta player), or let's say the other guy being compared to him a lot lately, Shaq/Duncan twin towers with some average d and shooting guy and then you're looking at 5 or 6 titles.

 

So you believe Wade was in his prime the last two years? You cannot believe that.

For the Bosh Gasol comparisment. If you only look at points and rebounds you could conclude Bosh is better. You are aware that there is more than Points and rebounds in a basketbal game, right? But as a Lakers fan i expect you have seen enough games of Gasol to understand he does a lot more than Bosh for a team (for example look at the assists).

I agree that it was like Jordan/Pippen and Lebron/Wade/Bosh. But nobody in their right mind would call Pippen a top 10 player all time. Jordan was clearly the best player in that team, just as Lebron is clearly the best player in the current heat, and Shaq was clearly the best player in those laker teams. Kobe was important but not irreplaceble, Shaq was.

Kobe was not the best player on his team for the first 8 years of his career, and for 3 of his 5 championships. You have to agree that that is an important fact when you compare Kobe to the all time greats?