They are still using it in A+ and A- last I checked. The plan was never to have it last all year in AA and AAA. I actually am surprised they used it at all at AAA. Luhnow has defended tandem pitching after AAA ceased tandem pitching. Luhnow is a baseball, forward thinker. Folty and Nitro have pitched better. That is more a pro-tandem argument than a con-argument. Astros want to develop pitchers. If you can't pitch 4 or 5 innings, you can't pitch 6 or 7. The theory behind tandem is that you get to see more pitchers. If a pitcher makes it to the higher levels, they can separate themselves as a starter when the teams cease using tandem pitching as planned. Based on your assessment, it has not hindered the development of Tropeano and Folty as they are pitching better. I generally am against tandem pitching at AAA as these guys need to be ready to get called up. I've seen nothing concrete that suggests tandem pitching is hurting or helping the development of prospects. I take this as a good sign as the Astros are getting to see more prospects pitch and has not hurt the development of Foly and Tropeano. But as I've said, there hasn't been much to document one way or another. Basically, it comes down to whether you trust the Astros or the players.
Where did you see the roster? It doesn't appear to updated on the Astros site. *I just saw your post in the draft tracker thread. Thanks.
Yep... Gray and Bryant have really separated themselves from Appel. Oh well, at least Luhnow got Aiken and Correa right.
I don't think it ever should be a "our way or the highway" approach in any aspect of life, let alone team-building. While the Astros are doing a good job of employing certain "innovative" strategies early on (regardless of whether or not they're beneficial), I don't think they should try to fit "everybody" into the same mold. Obviously some guys respond to certain regimens different than others... having the foresight to realize who's who allows them to avoid mal-development.
They're not going to go 100% in talent development Nick. Giving arbitrary players their own development plan isn't going to increase the success rate. It's just going to create more variables and make it tougher to consistently apply the system to everyone else.
That's not how you built a consistently successful organization. You may get randomly good players (current Miami Marlins) and even build a strong playoff contender for a few years (prime Utley, Rollins, Howard) Phillies but you don't get sustained excellence like the Braves, Rays or A's.
In a situation where a team functions either one way or the other, the leader of the team has to make a choice that is best for the team.
The system is never "consistently applied" to everybody... even the above teams you mentioned, (especially the Cardinals, who you didn't mention), all adapted their development plans depending on a players ability. Some players advanced fast through the system, some took more time, some skipped levels. The Astros are taking a more uniform/consistent approach to everybody... some respond, some don't... some reject it. Players should have "variables"... it shouldn't be as "easy" as they all get plugged into the same formula and you set it and forget it. Great organizations are the ones who anticipate the variables and are still able to separate the haves from the have nots. I'm not worried about the Astros' ability to do that (they've got enough geeks and nerds that appear to be smarter than everybody else)... but sometimes I see them showcasing innovation for the sake of being innovative.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>For an upcoming feature on Carlos Correa, Jeff Luhnow told us "He will play at Corpus Christi this year, there is no question about it."</p>— Greg Rajan (@GregRajan) <a href="https://twitter.com/GregRajan/statuses/479425948274552832">June 19, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Luhnow added "We want him to get that Double A experience. ... My guess is he will be spending the bulk of his second half in Corpus."</p>— Greg Rajan (@GregRajan) <a href="https://twitter.com/GregRajan/statuses/479426029568532481">June 19, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I would have used the Cardinals as a better example than all those teams... actually have some rings to show for it too. However, they've adapted their development plan over the years to the players better than any of those above teams, and they haven't had to bottom out to do so.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23cchooks&src=hash">#cchooks</a> move: OF Jordan Scott to CC from Lancaster. <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Astros&src=hash">#Astros</a></p>— Greg Rajan (@GregRajan) <a href="https://twitter.com/GregRajan/statuses/479381899715305472">June 18, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>For those asking, with Jordan Scott's arrival, no corresponding roster move for <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23cchooks&src=hash">#cchooks</a>. They're at a full complement of 25 active players.</p>— Greg Rajan (@GregRajan) <a href="https://twitter.com/GregRajan/statuses/479434433288609792">June 19, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Dude, I don't know what it is but I every time I read your posts I want to sit and type out a long rebuttal. At one point I even put you on my ignore list because I thought you were trolling. You're clearly a fan and well-educated on the Astros but man you always take the most dim view of any Astros fan on the board. It just seems like you expect the front office to throw a perfect game on everything. Just letting you know thats how you come across, whether or not you intend it.
Jeez... all I'm saying is that the tandem system isn't for everybody, especially not the pitchers who have come out and said they don't like the tandem system. And as part of a larger scope, fitting every player into the same "mold" and attempting to get the same results is simply not how successful organizations have been (or will continue to be) built. I'm really not sure why everybody is in such a huff to defend the entire organization as if they can do no wrong, or that their decisions should never be questioned, ever.... you can do such things AND be a fan at the same time, they're not mutually exclusive.
One, they've done such a good job rebuilding the system they get a lot of slack from me. A lot. I don't even think I need to expound on how many off-the-wall, unexpected good moves they've made that've garnered them said slack. Two, based on that I'm willing to give them slack until its obvious they're doing something wrong. E.g. looking back 5 years into Luhnow's tenure and finding he screwed up the development of Correa, Appel, Aiken and none of them ever made it to the bigs. It's like good management 101. Hire good people, get out of their way and support them when they need it. If they're consistently failing, fire them. If the good out weighs the bad enough, let the little **** pass. My point is, I'll strongly support Luhnow until I think he needs to be fired. If Appel ends up being a bust then that's a huge strike against Luhno. Until then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
And I strongly believe its a tough job being "the man" making the decisions. Did Luhnow make a mistake sending Appel to Lancaster? Maybe. You connected the dots in hindsight and made it seem like Luhnow was downright stupid for sending Appel there.
Good... glad to see you'll take the party-line approach and be supporting every single move till its a bad move. I'll continue to look at each move as they come and question whether or not its a good one... I'm sure I'll be on the wrong side of the argument at times, but I won't just imagine that everything they touch, or every pick they make, will turn into gold... it's impossible for that to happen. I think offering pre-arbitration deals as ultimatums to being called up was a good innovative move (especially if the player signs) that benefits the club big-time. I think the tandem system is gimmicky and was thought of by some guys with iPads playing video games. As far as "cutting slack"... i'll hold off on declaring them "invincible" till there is proven MLB success. Of course, you need a strong farm system... and that's exactly what Luhnow has accomplished (which was his track record all along)... and when you tear down the big league team like they did, it makes rebuilding the farm a tad easier. But nobody should be satisfied with just a good farm... its still about winning at the MLB level, and trying to field the best team possible. The last thing you want is this front office becoming somewhat "arrogant" or "stubborn" in their unproven ways... and they have developed a little bit of a reputation of that already around baseball (which is great... until you realize that they haven't proven anything yet).
No hindsight from me, I was against the move prior to the start of the season... thought he should have skipped Lancaster (or the A level altogether) if he was really "the man"... but the organization does not allow skipping of levels (let alone for the reasons of it being a terrible pitchers league... but Luhnow was confident that Appel would be able to handle it). I was looking forward to a CC road-trip this time of year to see Correa-Appel play.... any news where/when Appel's next start is btw?
